a crash course in prenups
 

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, a law student, a paralegal. None of that. My knowledge is solely by research and consultation with 2 different lawyers and finally getting a prenup done by a lawyer.
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so i am getting married in october and just finalized our prenups day before yesterday. when i saw that cheating thread I wanted to make this post.

Its very important to have a prenup. I dont care if you dont have any money, or you make same as your fiancee, or whatever. its still a great idea to have a prenup.

What can you have in a prenup?
Anything that you aquire during marriage (with the exception of gifts from your family) is community property (in the 9 states where there is community property law). As for other states, you will have to research further.

You will need to designate your holdings/assets as "separate property" before your marriage in your prenup if you want to keep them as yours should you separate.

eg: your salary during marriage, your retirement plan contributions, apreciation of the house during marriage that only has your name in the deed, can all become community property come divorce time.

How to prevent that?
In your prenup, your lawyer will designate your house, your 401 (k), your salary all as separate property. Meaning that even if contributions are made during marriage, that will not change the characterisation of the property which is stated to be "separate property".


this is just a tip of the iceberg. If you guys are interested in learning further, i can add secondary posts to this initial posts, some tips, some flags etc. If this is a boring topic based on replies, i wont post further on this thread

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

The trick isnt drafting one. Its convincing your soon-to-be wife! Lets see a thread about that and I'll be impressed.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

Question for dudes: would you be offended if you were marrying a girl and she wanted a prenup and you didn't really see the need? I sorta brought this up to 'Chair and I think I hurt his feelings. I would never marry someone that I didn't see myself being with forever, but I just feel like there are SOOOO many possible unforeseen events that it would just be better to be safe than sorry. This might make me a heartless bitch. Confirm/deny?

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

it's kind of silly for a woman to request a prenup unless she has significant assets already.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

my fiancee didnt even blink an eye when i mentioned that if we married we would have a prenup (before i ever proposed to her, she wasnt even my fiancee at that time obviously).

I am not rich (actually by this forum standards probably make in the bottom 30% salary) and my gf makes 20k less than me and we still have a prenup. I am bring significant more assets to the marriage than she is (through home equity and 401 k) and she feels that she shouldnt take half of all the appreciation during marriage just because she married me.

If your gf is a practical chick she wont have trouble seeing the need of it.

FFK, no you are not a heartless bitch. I wish all women were like you.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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it's kind of silly for a woman to request a prenup unless she has significant assets already.

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What can you have in a prenup?
Anything that you aquire during marriage (with the exception of gifts from your family) is community property

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I don't agree with you. I have just as much earning power, actually probably more, than my boyfriend.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

[ QUOTE ]
Question for dudes: would you be offended if you were marrying a girl and she wanted a prenup and you didn't really see the need? I sorta brought this up to 'Chair and I think I hurt his feelings. I would never marry someone that I didn't see myself being with forever, but I just feel like there are SOOOO many possible unforeseen events that it would just be better to be safe than sorry. This might make me a heartless bitch. Confirm/deny?

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the hurt look was not from the mention of a prenup probably, but the fact you brought up marriage.....


I keed, I keed



seriously, I wouldnt care in the least, and will def have as airtight of a prenup as possible guaranteeing anything I earn is mine if we split, no matter what.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

Prenups should be required by law. Yes, another law to protect the stupid, but love makes otherwise smart guys do stupid things. Plus, it'll help clean up the court system from all the divorce proceedings.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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it's kind of silly for a woman to request a prenup unless she has significant assets already.

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What can you have in a prenup?
Anything that you aquire during marriage (with the exception of gifts from your family) is community property

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I don't agree with you. I have just as much earning power, actually probably more, than my boyfriend.

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Yeah but all you have to do as a woman is have one kid and then the court will give you everything, put the dude out on the street and probably force him to pay child support and alimony too.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

any woman that won't sign a prenup...isn't actually in love with you.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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any woman that won't sign a prenup...isn't actually in love with you.

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Any women who won't sign a prenup which pertains to assets acquired after marriage...actually has a brain in her head, especially if she plans to bear your children.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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any woman that won't sign a prenup...isn't actually in love with you.

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Any women who won't sign a prenup which pertains to assets acquired after marriage...actually has a brain in her head, especially if she plans to bear your children.

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The whole notion of a 50/50 marriage, in todays society is by and large total [censored].

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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seriously, I wouldnt care in the least, and will def have as airtight of a prenup as possible guaranteeing anything I earn is mine if we split, no matter what.

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Very smart, IMO... but it leads me to another question I've struggled with. I hate the whole halving approach that is the norm in divorces, but consider this: you settle down and marry a hot little gal. Suddenly your club, or restaurant, or bar, or whatever investment you pursue takes off and you make lots of money. Ten years down the line, you and the Mrs Guids decide to have kids. You tell her you want her to stay home to raise the kids because you can afford it and you would rather have her raise your kids than strangers, so you both agree to do that. Fast forward to ten years down the line, she isn't looking so hot anymore, kids have put a stress on the marriage, and you want out. Do you still feel as if you shouldn't give her ANYTHING even though she has nothing and you both had agreed that you would bring home the bacon while she would raise kids and maintain a household? Obviously it's money that you solely earned, and I don't think something as simple as "half" would ever be the answer. But I feel like if two people agree to a setup like that, it's not exactly fair for one of them to be completely busto at the end of putting a lot of hard work into it. I can't really wrap my head around how I think, ethically, this should be dealt with.

EDIT: all of this is excluding child support

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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seriously, I wouldnt care in the least, and will def have as airtight of a prenup as possible guaranteeing anything I earn is mine if we split, no matter what.

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Very smart, IMO... but it leads me to another question I've struggled with. I hate the whole halving approach that is the norm in divorces, but consider this: you settle down and marry a hot little gal. Suddenly your club, or restaurant, or bar, or whatever investment you pursue takes off and you make lots of money. Ten years down the line, you and the Mrs Guids decide to have kids. You tell her you want her to stay home to raise the kids because you can afford it and you would rather have her raise your kids than strangers, so you both agree to do that. Fast forward to ten years down the line, she isn't looking so hot anymore, kids have put a stress on the marriage, and you want out. Do you still feel as if you shouldn't give her ANYTHING even though she has nothing and you both had agreed that you would bring home the bacon while she would raise kids and maintain a household? Obviously it's money that you solely earned, and I don't think something as simple as "half" would ever be the answer. But I feel like if two people agree to a setup like that, it's not exactly fair for one of them to be completely busto at the end of putting a lot of hard work into it. I can't really wrap my head around how I think, ethically, this should be dealt with.

EDIT: all of this is excluding child support

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I dunno, imo, I personally think if you are good father/husband there is no reason that having kids makes the chick deserved of anything after a divorce. In your example she had 10 whole years to earn her own money, I didntn force anything on her, so if she chose to sit on her ass and spend my money (which I have NO problem with at all) that is her perogative, but Im not going to bail her out if we get divorced. Yes, they give birth, but if Im making a lot of money, I dont need to work as hard as we are secure, I can burden A LOT of the load of raising the kids, Id be happy to in all honesty because I love kids (I have an 11 year old brother and a 1 year old niece that taught me this). But in all reality, the logistics of raising kids isnt too tough once they hit 5 or 6, they are in school 8 hours a day, so there is no reason for her to sit around the house, so if she wants to get a job, and just sack that money away while spending mine..again..no problem imo, but if god forbid we have a falling out there is no way Im going to give her much.


A lot of people probably think Im an [censored] here, but the girl that I plan on marrying is going to be independent and smart enough that any blame is going to be solely on her because it was laziness on her part more than anything else.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

I guess I was assuming that you would be working a lot. Also assuming that she popped out a kid every 3 years, meaning basically an infant around at all times. But yeah I see your perspective.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

The obvious solution to all this is just to not get married. Why would you get married these days. No one really cares if you just live together as bf and gf anymore.

Or if its that big of a deal for your parents, just get a wedding ceremony, and don't make it legal.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

I'm not gonna ever ask a woman i marry to be a stay at home so this is why im so full on prenup. Plus unless the marriage ends badly i.e. she cheats...I'd give her a portion of stuff..i.e sell the house and split it with her etc regardless

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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I guess I was assuming that you would be working a lot. Also assuming that she popped out a kid every 3 years, meaning basically an infant around at all times. But yeah I see your perspective.

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the other factor is, I really dont plan on getting married for another 10 years or so, so Ill be about 35, and hope to have the bulk of my money earned already, and this is by design more than anything.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

Does a man who has less assets and less earning power have anything to gain by signing a pre-nup?

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

guids,

If she stayed at home to take care of the kids and do the cooking (my impression is that you're looking for a very conventional domestic woman), she is saving you lots and lots of money that you would have otherwise spent. So in some sense, a good chunk of what you sock away during the marriage is money you earned precisely because she was in a spot to be taken advantage of in that way.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

[ QUOTE ]
guids,

If she stayed at home to take care of the kids and do the cooking (my impression is that you're looking for a very conventional domestic woman), she is saving you lots and lots of money that you would have otherwise spent. So in some sense, a good chunk of what you sock away during the marriage is money you earned precisely because she was in a spot to be taken advantage of in that way.

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Im not asking her to do any of this though. Thats the real problem I have. I want her to do whatever she is happy doing, if this means cooking every night, great (and srsly, this isnt saving me much money, plus no girls nowadays even know how to cook). If she wants to work, awesome. Just be logical about things is all I ask. Also, her cooking <<<<<< the stuff Id buy her.

A better way to put this:


I am 25, single, Im doing just fine on my own, I cook, do my own laundry, drive a nice car, have a nice place, I make a good chunk of money, Im in little debt, so why should I "pay" my wife to do any of these things?

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not gonna ever ask a woman i marry to be a stay at home so this is why im so full on prenup. Plus unless the marriage ends badly i.e. she cheats...I'd give her a portion of stuff..i.e sell the house and split it with her etc regardless

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This is the sort of answer I was looking for, thank you.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
guids,

If she stayed at home to take care of the kids and do the cooking (my impression is that you're looking for a very conventional domestic woman), she is saving you lots and lots of money that you would have otherwise spent. So in some sense, a good chunk of what you sock away during the marriage is money you earned precisely because she was in a spot to be taken advantage of in that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not asking her to do any of this though. Thats the real problem I have. I want her to do whatever she is happy doing, if this means cooking every night, great (and srsly, this isnt saving me much money, plus no girls nowadays even know how to cook). If she wants to work, awesome. Just be logical about things is all I ask. Also, her cooking <<<<<< the stuff Id buy her.

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If she does work, is she paying for the child care out of her pocket? My point was that somebody has to take care of the kids, and it costs money, either in the form of income foregone by her (and thus saved by you) or from what you pay to employ somebody to do it. What I'm saying is even if she chooses to stay at home, the money that YOU (as opposed to the you and wife combo) save is money that you have pretty much directly because of her. I think in those circumstances it isn't unfair to recoup that.

I tend to think that divorce proceedings are a little too wanton with the division of assets, and I used to have a more hardline opinion like yours. A lengthy discussion with my fiancee about some of this stuff a while ago brought up a lot of the woman's side of things that I hadn't really thought about.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
guids,

If she stayed at home to take care of the kids and do the cooking (my impression is that you're looking for a very conventional domestic woman), she is saving you lots and lots of money that you would have otherwise spent. So in some sense, a good chunk of what you sock away during the marriage is money you earned precisely because she was in a spot to be taken advantage of in that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not asking her to do any of this though. Thats the real problem I have. I want her to do whatever she is happy doing, if this means cooking every night, great (and srsly, this isnt saving me much money, plus no girls nowadays even know how to cook). If she wants to work, awesome. Just be logical about things is all I ask. Also, her cooking <<<<<< the stuff Id buy her.

[/ QUOTE ]

If she does work, is she paying for the child care out of her pocket? My point was that somebody has to take care of the kids, and it costs money, either in the form of income foregone by her (and thus saved by you) or from what you pay to employ somebody to do it. What I'm saying is even if she chooses to stay at home, the money that YOU (as opposed to the you and wife combo) save is money that you have pretty much directly because of her. I think in those circumstances it isn't unfair to recoup that.

I tend to think that divorce proceedings are a little too wanton with the division of assets, and I used to have a more hardline opinion like yours. A lengthy discussion with my fiancee about some of this stuff a while ago brought up a lot of the woman's side of things that I hadn't really thought about.

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If she doesnt work, Im still paying for everything though, just because she raises the kids and stays at home, yes it may save me money, but Im paying for the food, Im paying for the mortgage, Im paying the utilities, Im paying for their schooling, groceries, etc. So, imo, she is using more of my money than anything else. If she decides she wants to work, than we split the cost evenly. im not going to change my whole life for anyone, Im doing just fine on my own, so if we love eachother enough to get married, she is going to love me enough to understand that.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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But in all reality, the logistics of raising kids isnt too tough once they hit 5 or 6, they are in school 8 hours a day, so there is no reason for her to sit around the house

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Oh, yes, 5 or 6 years old...when they start joining Little League and ballet and soccer and require transportation to and from practices/games/performances, not to mention attendance at those games/performances...

and require equipping for all of these things: buying (which includes shopping for) tutus and softballs and shoes that they outgrow every couple of months. Not to mention coaching or when it's your turn to bring snacks for any and all of the above activities. And they start needing help with homework, reading practice, and start getting sick more because they are in contact with other kids and need doctor's appointments and dentist appointments and innoculations. And you're expected to attend PTA meetings and parent-teacher conferences and activities at the school several times a month. Not to mention that you as the parent are held responsible for making sure that the little darling arrives at school every day with every thing that he needs to get him through the day.

And if there is more than one you end up trying to coordinate all of this around the care and feeding of an infant or toddler...trying to keep a small child safe once he starts walking. Trying to do the grocery shopping while keeping your kid close and being watchful for someone that might snatch your baby/child...or he just wanders off into the path of a passing car.

I could go on and on and on. And we haven't even talked about housecleaning and laundry and meals...all things that increase exponentially when you add kids to a household and also things that nobody ever notices until somebody STOPS doing them.

So, no, your supposed wife was not just sitting around on her ass all day while you were making your supposed millions away from home at the club. In fact, she got up before the kids did every morning, and was exhausted when she put them to bed that night.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

[ QUOTE ]
If she doesnt work, Im still paying for everything though, just because she raises the kids and stays at home, yes it may save me money, but Im paying for the food, Im paying for the mortgage, Im paying the utilities, Im paying for their schooling, groceries, etc. So, imo, she is using more of my money than anything else. If she decides she wants to work, than we split the cost evenly. im not going to change my whole life for anyone, Im doing just fine on my own, so if we love eachother enough to get married, she is going to love me enough to understand that.

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Then you shouldn't have any kids.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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But in all reality, the logistics of raising kids isnt too tough once they hit 5 or 6, they are in school 8 hours a day, so there is no reason for her to sit around the house

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Oh, yes, 5 or 6 years old...when they start joining Little League and ballet and soccer and require transportation to and from practices/games/performances, not to mention attendance at those games/performances...

and require equipping for all of these things: buying (which includes shopping for) tutus and softballs and shoes that they outgrow every couple of months. Not to mention coaching or when it's your turn to bring snacks for any and all of the above activities. And they start needing help with homework, reading practice, and start getting sick more because they are in contact with other kids and need doctor's appointments and dentist appointments and innoculations. And you're expected to attend PTA meetings and parent-teacher conferences and activities at the school several times a month. Not to mention that you as the parent are held responsible for making sure that the little darling arrives at school every day with every thing that he needs to get him through the day.

And if there is more than one you end up trying to coordinate all of this around the care and feeding of an infant or toddler...trying to keep a small child safe once he starts walking. Trying to do the grocery shopping while keeping your kid close and being watchful for someone that might snatch your baby/child...or he just wanders off into the path of a passing car.

I could go on and on and on. And we haven't even talked about housecleaning and laundry and meals...all things that increase exponentially when you add kids to a household and also things that nobody ever notices until somebody STOPS doing them.

So, no, your supposed wife was not just sitting around on her ass all day while you were making your supposed millions away from home at the club. In fact, she got up before the kids did every morning, and was exhausted when she put them to bed that night.

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This is a bunch of [censored]. My mom handled all this stuff, and was so bored she had to go back to school to get her degree so she could start teaching because of how useless she felt during the day. These are her words not mine.


Are you srsly bitching about buying sports equipment, and driving a kid to school as something that I should be bowing down to your graces for doing? get real.


Maybe my dad just pulled more than his fair share than yours, or something, but that whole post is a joke. My dad was the one that coached us in sports, spend weekends w/ us picking out cleats, etc. If the husband does what he should and owns up to his responsibility of raising the kids (something severly lacking in this country obv), than I he doesnt owe anyone anything.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

Yeah, guids, definitely don't get married.

Big Flashing Red Light to Women Everywhere: A man that says "MY MOTHER DID ALL THOSE THINGS."

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

Are you seriously arguing that all the money that is earned in the marriage is yours if she stays at home? That you derive no benefit from having her raise your kids? That you don't save literally tens of thousands of dollars in child care costs alone?

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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Yeah, guids, definitely don't get married.

Big Flashing Red Light to Women Everywhere: A man that says "MY MOTHER DID ALL THOSE THINGS."

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this is laughable. laundry, and cooking...haha...get real. Or maybe IM SUPER HUMAN in the fact that I do all these things myself, while earning a good income, and still have more than plenty of time to go out and party....

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

I'll be impressed when you can do all those things yourself, AND for several other people, and also take care of an active 4 year old.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously arguing that all the money that is earned in the marriage is yours if she stays at home? That you derive no benefit from having her raise your kids? That you don't save literally tens of thousands of dollars in child care costs alone?

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Yes. I think it evens out. Where is she going to get the car to drive the kids to school? where is she going to get the money to buy the food/groceries/pay the mortgage/etc? where do you think this all comes from? thin air?

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

Without her, where do you think the kids come from? Thin air?

Edit for clarity: That money that you are spending is supporting your kids, which I'm assuming you wanted because you agreed to have some. It's not like you just had them to indulge her.

You are NOT spending money for someone to watch your kids. You are NOT wondering if the person that you are paying to babysit your offspring is actually locking them in the basement. You are NOT having to call in sick to work because the little angel has a cold and can't go to daycare that day.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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I'll be impressed when you can do all those things yourself, AND for several other people, and also take care of an active 4 year old.

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I make 6 or 7 meals for myself, and probably have more clothes in my closet than most of the girls on this board.

PS- I still havent met teh girl that can rival me in the kitchen, so in all actuality, it will be a step down.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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Without her, where do you think the kids come from? Thin air?

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who gives a [censored]? what bearing does this have on anything at all?

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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I'll be impressed when you can do all those things yourself, AND for several other people, and also take care of an active 4 year old.

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I make 6 or 7 meals for myself, and probably have more clothes in my closet than most of the girls on this board.

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I have 8 purses.

Meaning: I don't understand what this post has to do with the price of tea in China.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

guids,

Let's leave you (guids) out of this, because you're going to be rich and have tons of time to be home often and drive your kids to soccer practice and crap. Let's just take some generic dude. Even if he doesn't force his wife to be a stay at home mom, a lot of woman actually want to do this, regardless of how much income the father makes. They feel it's in the best interest of the kids (I largely agree). They do so so so much for their children. They've essentially sacrificed their earning potential to keep you and the kids fed, keep the laundry clean, keep the house in good order, etc etc. If things get hairy later on, she could be in a really rough spot.

It just seems you're looking at your wife as some chick you hang out with.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

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I'll be impressed when you can do all those things yourself, AND for several other people, and also take care of an active 4 year old.

[/ QUOTE ]

I make 6 or 7 meals for myself, and probably have more clothes in my closet than most of the girls on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 8 purses.

Meaning: I don't understand what this post has to do with the price of tea in China.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that you are making [censored] that I am already doing on a daily basis, while making money mind you, into something that is apparently worth thousands upon thousands of dollars for a women do be doing. well, its not. none of this stuff is taxing.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

[ QUOTE ]
guids,

Let's leave you (guids) out of this, because you're going to be rich and have tons of time to be home often and drive your kids to soccer practice and crap. Let's just take some generic dude. Even if he doesn't force his wife to be a stay at home mom, a lot of woman actually want to do this, regardless of how much income the father makes. They feel it's in the best interest of the kids (I largely agree). They do so so so much for their children. They've essentially sacrificed their earning potential to keep you and the kids fed, keep the laundry clean, keep the house in good order, etc etc. If things get hairy later on, she could be in a really rough spot.

It just seems you're looking at your wife as some chick you hang out with.

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Even if he doesn't force his wife to be a stay at home mom, a lot of woman actually want to do this, regardless of how much income the father makes.


bingo. we all make choices. there are consequences for these choices, live with it. Im making a sacrifice supporting my wife monetarily (at the very least) while she is doing what she wants to do, why should I be penalized after the fact? she got what she wanted/thought she wanted out of the marriage, and its not like I plan on being some absentee father.



And taking the kids to soccer practice as a dad etc doesnt mean you have to be rich. My dad when we were growing up, was a union guy, got to work at 7, was home at 4 or 5, he had more than enough time to do all the stuff dads should do, he was the coach of almost every team I played on, and I spent every weekend with him at our garage working on cars and shooting bb guns in the back yard.

Re: a crash course in prenups
 

I already pointed out that you (as far as I know) are not doing laundry for 4 people including yourself. That you are not spending hours on stain removal to get random bits of crap out of every item of size one clothing. That you are not doing all of this while trying to supervise homework and manage the household. That any time you are especially busy you can have popcorn for dinner and no one will care. That you don't have kids spilling/pooping/vomiting/drawing on every household surface and coming in your front door without wiping their feet 10 times a day.

That you don't have a son that is trying to learn to hit the toilet and, well, not, necessitating the cleaning of your bathroom every day.

That you can occasionally have a phone conversation uninterrupted by your child tugging on you because he's bleeding.

Am I wrong?