Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

They believe that if they build it a NBA franchise will come.

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_6693150

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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They believe that if they build it a NBA franchise will come.

http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_6693150

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2 many gamblers and places to bet sports i always thought was the reason they never had a team. Well... do we count the XFL team?

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

this is HUGE news. It solves the problem the NBA has of getting players to and from the area proposed by the Mayor who has been working on his vision of redeveloping downtown with the area as the centerpiece for the past year. With Harrah's ESPN clout this seems real. What I dont understand is why they didnt discuss with the city in advance, and what the Mayor will have to do to bring another sport to the table (The Mayor's plan is to redevelop the downtown arts district across from my home).

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

They have a minor-league hockey team that plays at the Orleans right now.
If this new arena wants to lay down some ice then I'm sure this team could have an interest in playing at the better location.

A city like Las Vegas could draw pretty decently for a minor-league hockey team with a good arena and location. Maybe that would even catch the NHL's eye a bit more.

Gary Bettman might not have the same kind of hang-ups that Stern has. His league is struggling a lot more of course.
Possibility of bringing an NHL team if the arena is there waiting for one? I sure as hell don't know but am just trying to think creatively here.

I think LV already has some arena football already but obviously this could be moved over to the new arena too if they wanted.

And having a higher caliber and newer arena in a city that already brings in a zillion conventions could always work out decently. Thinking the Rodeo championships in December could be moved there if they wanted to.
I don't know how nice the Thomas Mack arena is but I'm assuming it isn't really that impressive which is why they could use a new arena in the first place.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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I don't know how nice the Thomas Mack arena is but I'm assuming it isn't really that impressive which is why they could use a new arena in the first place.

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Its impossible to get to without a car, thats part of the reason why the All Star weekend was such a nightmare. Stern said he wouldn't go back to the T&M.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

Right. Even if they were able to build all the luxury-suites and all that other cool stuff onto a slightly beat-up Mack Center it obviously doesn't have the best of locations.

An arena right there just a quick walk from the middle of the strip would draw pretty well I would have to think.

I would be really interested to see how that minor-league hockey team would do there.
Harrah's could give away tix as cheap comps, especially to families. etc etc.

I'm also assuming UNLV might be interested in playing there as well as their conference tourney.
And other stuff like NBA-development stuff perhaps and things like the current FIBA tournament.

Not sure if they would be able to land some early-round NCAA tourney games though as that area already gets crazy enough during March Madness time and there's enough paranoia about the sports-betting conflicts as is.

There are so many cities that have fewer uses for a nice arena who built one and then hoped maybe they could land a few concerts to fill the space occasionally through the year.
LV has enough stuff going on that could be a good fit for that arena that I really don't think there's much risk for Harrah's to be building something like this just off the strip even if they never get an NBA team.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

david stern says no. jim rome has asked him a few times.

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Vegas seems like a good place to have a basketball team imo...reminds me of LA.

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At least the refs can play blackjack close by.

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With Harrah's ESPN clout this seems real.

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lol, I had to laugh a little at this one.

I have no idea if an NBA team will come to Vegas, but I'm pretty sure ESPN and Harrah's aren't too fond of each other.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

Honestly, bringing a pro team to Vegas would be good for sports in general.

I believe the A's played there for part of a season in 96 or so, and drew very well despite no planning or marketing.

Harrah\'s ignoring the Mayor For Life is payback time ....
 

"What I dont understand is why they didnt discuss with the city in advance,..."

Ballys, and the Strip, are outside the City of Las Vegas. You know that the County is the real heavyweight entity.

Bottomline, Oscar was a real pain in the ass for Harrah's when they acquired the WSOP. Remember Oscar's strongarm : "I'll block the move unless you agree to run the finals Downtown for another year".

Also, Jan Jones likely has no love for Oscar either.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

... not to mention the likely skittishness the NBA has for gambling venues these days.

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"reminds me of LA.'

Californication. Damn!

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

David Stern has said several time it will not even be considered as long as gambling on the NBA is legal in NV...so I would say no chance.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

Las Vegas drew just over 5k fans last year. They also had a really good team that finished first in their division with a record of 46-12-14.

5k fans is pretty good for that level. The capacity for Orleans arena is 7,800.
The league average was 4,100. Stockton led the league with 6,700.
Long Beach was last among the western "National Conference" teams in that league with 2,200 per game.

The top drawing team for the AA level of hockey is Oklahoma City at 8,700 playing in a different league.
OKC naturally plays in the Ford Center which is pretty much an NBA/NHL caliber arena and is much nicer than what most minor-league teams get.
It would be roughly the caliber of arena that Harrah's would be looking to build I imagine.

So if LV could do 5k/gm at their current venue at the Orleans I wonder how much better they could do in an awesome new venue with a better location.

Think of it this way:
If you live in LV now and are only vaguely familiar with this team or when they are playing a game then I suspect they could be doing better. No matter how well they market themselves they're just kind of "that team that plays all the way down there at the Orleans on some weekends."

With a location just off the strip in a dazzling new arena there would be more casual passers-by attending.

Same thing would go for a new location for the Las Vegas 51's baseball team too imo but that's probably not an option.

Another option for the hockey team would be to just play SOME of their games in the new arena and keep the Orleans as their regular home.
The team in Indianapolis as well as a few other teams used to do that although I don't know if they still do.
They would play 80% of their games in the small and old Pepsi Arena which would hold around 5k fans and then would play 5 or 6 games a year at the big Conjelco Arena downtown where the Indiana Pacers NBA also plays.

Anyway, just thinking that this minor-league hockey team would be a good way to get this arena a little boost upon its completion/opening because it doesn't seem THAT likely that they'll just immediately have an NBA team right-away and they would probably like to have SOMETHING that they could put in there.

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The location is gonna suck for locals. Plus that means major traffic on Koval Ave during events... I'm not even a local and I'm worried. Although, you'd expect a lot of foot traffic.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

they'll prolly use it for monster truck pulls

Re: Harrah\'s ignoring the Mayor For Life is payback time ....
 

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"What I dont understand is why they didnt discuss with the city in advance,..."

Ballys, and the Strip, are outside the City of Las Vegas. You know that the County is the real heavyweight entity.

Bottomline, Oscar was a real pain in the ass for Harrah's when they acquired the WSOP. Remember Oscar's strongarm : "I'll block the move unless you agree to run the finals Downtown for another year".

Also, Jan Jones likely has no love for Oscar either.

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thanks, I always forget the county/city issue because I live in the city.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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With Harrah's ESPN clout this seems real.

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lol, I had to laugh a little at this one.

I have no idea if an NBA team will come to Vegas, but I'm pretty sure ESPN and Harrah's aren't too fond of each other.

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source?

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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The location is gonna suck for locals. Plus that means major traffic on Koval Ave during events... I'm not even a local and I'm worried. Although, you'd expect a lot of foot traffic.

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This is, in my view the biggest problem for any pro franchise in Vegas. The market is only 1 million strong. That's Henderson/NLV/LV. Draw a 100 mile radius around LV and you might be up to 1.1 million. The key for any pro franchise will be tourists. In that regard it is a great draw for the team and the city. It is easy to imagine a sports fan finding out his team is playing LV some weekend and decide, "why not take a weekend trip to LV AND watch the game?" But how do you appeal to both locals and tourists? Tourists can have a hard time leaving the strip, and locals have a hard time getting to the strip. 7:30 and 8:00 start times might do it Sunday-Thursday, but the strip is ALWAYS a mess friday and Saturday.

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(The Mayor's plan is to redevelop the downtown arts district across from my home).

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Where is the Arts District? Is this between downtown and the Strat with Main St. running through it? I see that more than a few condo projects are slated for the arts dist.

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Vegas seems like a good place to have a basketball team imo...reminds me of LA.

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You mean if they ever won, they could have riots and torch cars in the streets?

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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They believe that if they build it a NBA franchise will come.

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I hope Vegas never gets an NBA team.

All-Star weekend was a nightmare for those who don't wear clocks around our necks and listen to rap...

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(The Mayor's plan is to redevelop the downtown arts district across from my home).

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Where is the Arts District? Is this between downtown and the Strat with Main St. running through it? I see that more than a few condo projects are slated for the arts dist.

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Most of those projects were canceled. Its the edge of Charleston between Main and LVB which creates a multi-block triagle.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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The location is gonna suck for locals. Plus that means major traffic on Koval Ave during events... I'm not even a local and I'm worried. Although, you'd expect a lot of foot traffic.

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This is, in my view the biggest problem for any pro franchise in Vegas. The market is only 1 million strong. That's Henderson/NLV/LV. Draw a 100 mile radius around LV and you might be up to 1.1 million. The key for any pro franchise will be tourists. In that regard it is a great draw for the team and the city. It is easy to imagine a sports fan finding out his team is playing LV some weekend and decide, "why not take a weekend trip to LV AND watch the game?" But how do you appeal to both locals and tourists? Tourists can have a hard time leaving the strip, and locals have a hard time getting to the strip. 7:30 and 8:00 start times might do it Sunday-Thursday, but the strip is ALWAYS a mess friday and Saturday.

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The population of Clark County is almost 2 million...

But yeah, traffic would be horrible. How are you supposed to get there? Exit from I-15 and then cross the strip? Take surface streets in from the east? What a mess.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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(The Mayor's plan is to redevelop the downtown arts district across from my home).

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Where is the Arts District? Is this between downtown and the Strat with Main St. running through it? I see that more than a few condo projects are slated for the arts dist.

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Most of those projects were canceled. Its the edge of Charleston between Main and LVB which creates a multi-block triagle.

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The Arts District is north of Charleston, while the proposed arena/casino/clusterfk is south of Charleston, in an area populated by furniture stores and muffler shops. It could use a new purpose.

Just the thought of the traffic situation around the Ballys site makes me want to throw up. There is very, very little they can do to improve it as there is not much room on either side. I hope they don't crush Ellis Island. lol

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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(The Mayor's plan is to redevelop the downtown arts district across from my home).

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Where is the Arts District? Is this between downtown and the Strat with Main St. running through it? I see that more than a few condo projects are slated for the arts dist.

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Most of those projects were canceled. Its the edge of Charleston between Main and LVB which creates a multi-block triagle.

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The Arts District is north of Charleston, while the proposed arena/casino/clusterfk is south of Charleston, in an area populated by furniture stores and muffler shops. It could use a new purpose.

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Actually that area with muffler shops and used furniture stores IS the arts district, which also extends north of Charleston (which is where First Friday is held). For all intents the arts district concept was a failure. For those who don't live here, the Gamblers General Store is in the arts district.

This map shows the proposed area for the stadium, its the space to the right of PULSE (I have no idea what PULSE will be used for). My understanding is that the Hue Lofts project has been canceled, I have never seen anything for the Eighty on 4th project; I don't know if it ever got off the drawing bard stages.

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The location is gonna suck for locals. Plus that means major traffic on Koval Ave during events... I'm not even a local and I'm worried. Although, you'd expect a lot of foot traffic.

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This is, in my view the biggest problem for any pro franchise in Vegas. The market is only 1 million strong. That's Henderson/NLV/LV. Draw a 100 mile radius around LV and you might be up to 1.1 million. The key for any pro franchise will be tourists. In that regard it is a great draw for the team and the city. It is easy to imagine a sports fan finding out his team is playing LV some weekend and decide, "why not take a weekend trip to LV AND watch the game?" But how do you appeal to both locals and tourists? Tourists can have a hard time leaving the strip, and locals have a hard time getting to the strip. 7:30 and 8:00 start times might do it Sunday-Thursday, but the strip is ALWAYS a mess friday and Saturday.

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The population of Clark County is almost 2 million...

But yeah, traffic would be horrible. How are you supposed to get there? Exit from I-15 and then cross the strip? Take surface streets in from the east? What a mess.

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yeah, just figured this out myself. Apparently there is a huge population in "unincorporated Las Vegas".

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But yeah, traffic would be horrible. How are you supposed to get there? Exit from I-15 and then cross the strip? Take surface streets in from the east? What a mess.

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Obviously LV is a bit different than other cities because of the touristy and high-traffic nature and crazyness that is the strip.
But there aren't exactly a shortage of arenas and stadiums that are along the lines of "how the hell are you supposed to get there?"

Have traffic officers and swing the cars in back and forth or whatever.
Use shuttles.
I've been to other major-league stadiums and arenas that have been further away from the interstate and have you crawling your way through several slow neighborhoods of one light after another.

Traffic is bad at sports-events. It's kind of a fact of life.

I reiterate though that perhaps I don't understand the dynamic of crappy LV traffic compared to other cities.

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5k fans is pretty good for that level. The capacity for Orleans arena is 7,800.


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That is pretty good for the ECHL.

However the 51s (minor league baseball) also draw an average of around 5200, not as good for the Pacific Coast League. The 51s rank 12th out of the 16 teams, and under the league average of about 6600 per game.

Things are even worse if you move to Arena Football. The Las Vegas Gladiators drew an average 5400, last in the league and well behind the average of 12,400.

The major leagues also want the TV audience, and Las Vegas ranks 43rd among US TV markets. (although it was 51st back in 2004, when Goodman tried to lure the Expos to town).

Combine that with the issues already mentioned, and a sports team is not a sure thing to come to Vegas or succeed there.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

you're sort of making my case for me

most sporting events take place in areas which normally have minimal traffic at around the times that people will be going there for the event, and the traffic is still horrible

traffic along the strip at 7 PM is already oversaturated

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I reiterate though that perhaps I don't understand the dynamic of crappy LV traffic compared to other cities.

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there is one difference between vegas and other cities. in other cities, the traffic often moves. when i tried to drive into the strip on one evening i regretted not bringing a picnic basket.

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With huge recent betting scandals in the NBA and NHL, I doubt they could get any team within 10-20 years unless they offered HUGE sums of money, like 4-5x more then another location such as Ohio or Kansas City.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

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With huge recent betting scandals in the NBA and NHL, I doubt they could get any team within 10-20 years unless they offered HUGE sums of money, like 4-5x more then another location such as Ohio or Kansas City.

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We really need to get beyond this.

aoFrantic, I know you're just telling it like it is and not saying this necessarily makes sense, but this always pisses me off.

England has arguably the finest soccer league in the world, and there is a sportsbook like Paddy Power outside practically every other tube stop.

Legal sportsbooks operated by licensed businesses want to avoid this kind of scandal as much as the leagues themselves.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

I look forward to watching all sorts of events at Harrah's new arena, all while paying 50% "convenience fees" on all tickets.

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5k fans is pretty good for that level. The capacity for Orleans arena is 7,800.


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That is pretty good for the ECHL.

However the 51s (minor league baseball) also draw an average of around 5200, not as good for the Pacific Coast League. The 51s rank 12th out of the 16 teams, and under the league average of about 6600 per game.

Things are even worse if you move to Arena Football. The Las Vegas Gladiators drew an average 5400, last in the league and well behind the average of 12,400.

The major leagues also want the TV audience, and Las Vegas ranks 43rd among US TV markets. (although it was 51st back in 2004, when Goodman tried to lure the Expos to town).

Combine that with the issues already mentioned, and a sports team is not a sure thing to come to Vegas or succeed there.

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I don't think that measuring the attendance of the LV 51's is really worth looking at as far as the potential success of any big-league sport in LV including MLB.

The LV 51's stadium just isn't that hot. Facility is borderline lousy-ish from what I've heard and it's not the best of locations either. Weather isn't exactly too inviting either for much of the season.
If LV were to go all-out for a major-league baseball team I'm assuming a dazzling stadium in a better location with a retractable roof would need to be part of the equation.

And none of that relates too terribly much to the potential success of an NBA or NHL team.

I also caution against reading too much into some of those attendance figures in minor-league baseball as some of them are inflated beyond all recognition.
LV's may very well be also.

They can do this by doing such things as selling some corporation a billboard or program-ad and then also throwing in 35 season-tickets into the contract that they're almost never going to use or something weird.

Memphis is among the leaders in the Pacific Coast League in attendance each year and from their figures one would think that practically every game there is a sell-out. It is simply not true.
They announce a crowd of 8,000 when there are clearly 2,000 people or fewer in the stands.
This is not an exaggeration at all and it's a reasonably common thing in minor-league baseball.

I went to a game with fewer than 1,000 people in the stands by my guess and they announced 7,800. I was having a casual chat with the president of the team at the time and my jaw dropped. He said something like, "well, that's how it works these days" which is true. It's hardly isolated to just the Memphis team.

LV's attendance probably isn't that great either. But they might not be as far behind some of the other teams as you might think.

My hunch is that Sacramento and Round Rock's numbers are perhaps a bit more legit.
Heard good things about Albuquerque's fan-base these days too.

Sacramento right now is averaging 9994 fans per game. I can almost guarantee you that they will definitely get to a 10k average for the year.
Whatever number they need on their last game of the year, they will announce that number or higher.


Oh, but I digress yet again.

Short version is to not put too much stock in minor-league baseball attendance figures. Their accuracy is iffy, and it really doesn't tell you THAT much about a city's potential for supporting a major-league team.

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With huge recent betting scandals in the NBA and NHL, I doubt they could get any team within 10-20 years unless they offered HUGE sums of money, like 4-5x more then another location such as Ohio or Kansas City.

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Ohio already has an NBA team and an NHL team.

The NBA team is in Cleveland which is in one corner of the state. But to my knowledge there really isn't very much interest at all in the Cincinnati area to land an NBA team.

The NHL team in Columbus is pretty centrally located of course. Cleveland has a first-class arena that could host an NHL team and maybe they even have the fan-base to support it. But it doesn't seem very likely to me.

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

Here's a little known truth:

Very few in LV cares whether we get an NBA team or not. Oscar does. Maybe some sportswriter. But not the average citizen. He couldn't care less.

Given a choice between an NBA team and not booking NBA games, I guarantee you the casinos will choose their books.

Despite that, most of the pro bettors in this town are very down on the sportsbooks because they won't take their action at the levels they need to make a living. The thought that having a team would make it worse is intolerable.

Sooner or later, somebody needs to point out that the NBA is minor league sports now. (If you don't believe it, look at the TV numbers.)

Re: Harrah\'s to build sports arena behind Ballys
 

For all you hockey fans ...

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly said the arena announcement "positively impacts the prospects of Las Vegas attracting a major-league franchise" but said there was "nothing new to report" regarding league expansion or the NHL's intentions about a team in Las Vegas.

"That is a matter our Board of Governors would have to consider at an appropriate time," he said in a statement.

Globe & Mail article