Is poker gambling?
 

Greetings,
Just wondering your thoughts on this...

What is gambling?

Is poker gambling?

What makes poker a game of skill?

Does the fact that poker is a game of skill change anything?

Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?

What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)


Thanks a lot guys, post any and all thoughts.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

You can find this topic covered extensivly in the Poker legislation fourm and porb. the theory fourm as well.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

Sorry for the redundancy

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

50/50

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

You ask some legitimate questions, but as pointed out, this probably isn't the best forum in which to ask them. Also, don't be surprised if people give you stupid answers.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is gambling?

[/ QUOTE ]
Risking something for a potential gain. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling

[ QUOTE ]
Is poker gambling?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Without a doubt.

[ QUOTE ]
What makes poker a game of skill?

[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that the decisions you make has a real effect on your long term expected outcome.

[ QUOTE ]
Does the fact that poker is a game of skill change anything?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing substantial.... I don't know what you mean.

A skill game and a gambling game are not mutually exclusive.

[ QUOTE ]
Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think there are varying degrees of something being gambling - The definition from wikipedia, and any useful definition, is a binary situation - it is either gambling, or it is not. Something can't be half gambling.

I think, however, you're trying to ask about the variance of each game, and that varies according to the format of the game, the style of the game, the rules of the game, and the payout structure of the game. In STTs, someone (Irieguy?) proved that one standard deviation was almost always 1.9 as a result of a .5/.3/.2 payout structure. The search function will help you find that post if you genuinely care.

[ QUOTE ]
What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh - I don't think it's possible in any meaningful way.

I guess you could play the game with all the cards face up, including those that are yet to come, and have a pre-determined deal for each hand. I assume that would eliminate the gambling aspect of it.

Alternatively, most people would not consider it to be gambling if there was no monetary value at stake, so you could have a "free" game of poker with 0/0 blinds.


On the other hand, if you explain a little more about the situation that you want to know this informatio for, it may be possible to provide some alternative ideas. You're asking very direct questions, and are going to get a bunch of joke answers and a bunch of very direct answers.

If you provide more information, some more meaningful answers may be possible.


Also, similar discussions about poker as a game of skill are reasonably common in the legislation forum.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

Okay Josem, you obviously did such a good job answering him to make me look like an idiot...

Truthfully, it sounds like this guy (OP) is trying to make the argument to someone (or trying to rationalize in his own mind) that poker isn't gambling. We've all had the "WTF you're a degenerate gambler" before from our friends and family. OP, just make sure you're a winning player and making lots of money, and no one will question you.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

The Gutshot Club in London argued against a prosecution on the basis that poker was a game of skill and therefore not subject to gambling legislation. They lost. So legally in the UK poker is gambling.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

poker is gambling. thread over.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes poker a game of skill?

[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that the decisions you make has a real effect on your long term expected outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Close. However, by your definition of a skill game, all casino games are skill games too since there are varying degrees of -EV decisions that can lead to a steeper negative slope in the long term expected income (ie: playing roulette has a much lower return that playing slots).

A person can make +EV decisions in skill games, whereas in casino games a person simply makes decisions that are all -EV(or 0 EV) but to different degrees. Skill games put the players in situations with either +EV or -EV decisions available and it is up to the player to determine which decisions are +EV and which are -EV. Non-skill games don't offer this -- all decisions are -EV.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)

___________

The only thing I could think of is giving players the amount of equity they have in a pot if they're all-in before the river.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]

What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)


[/ QUOTE ]

Dont play for money.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

Poker is gambling.

The end.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
poker is gambling. thread over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I read all the answers before I posted mine.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

We call them "donkaments" for a reason.

Also, as someone pointed out, just because poker is a game of skill doesn't mean it's not gambling. chess is 100% skill, but if you wager your money to someone else's you're also gambling.

Of course, you're also gambling every time you invest in the stock market or even drive to work.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

poker is gambling due to the fact that the best chance of winning hand doesnt always win

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

Walking outside without an umbrella is gambling.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

i dont think so, your not playing against the house

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP, just make sure you're a winning player and making lots of money, and no one will question you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true at all.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

One could argue someone like Michael Jordan was gambling when he played. He took unecessary risks which could yield bigger rewards. Instead of pulling up for jump shots or fadeaways he could have just stretched his arm and dunked from half court every time.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Walking outside is gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

yes

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is gambling?


[/ QUOTE ]

–verb (used without object)
1. to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes.
2. to stake or risk money, or anything of value, on the outcome of something involving chance: to gamble on a toss of the dice.

–verb (used with object)
3. to lose or squander by betting (usually fol. by away): He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.
4. to wager or risk (money or something else of value): to gamble one's freedom.
5. to take a chance on; venture; risk: I'm gambling that our new store will be a success.

–noun
6. any matter or thing involving risk or hazardous uncertainty.
7. a venture in a game of chance for stakes, esp. for high stakes.

[Origin: 1150–1200; ME gamenen to play (OE gamenian), with substitution of -le for -en; see game1]


[ QUOTE ]
Is poker gambling?


[/ QUOTE ]

You bet it is.


[ QUOTE ]
What makes poker a game of skill?


[/ QUOTE ]

A skillful player is able to manipulate the variables involved in poker hands over the course of his career such that he will have an average positive expectation for every bet he make in games with one or more less skillful players.

[ QUOTE ]
Does the fact that poker is a game of skill change anything?


[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean, does the fact that poker involve skill makes it "not" gambling, then the answer is "no." Poker is gambling. It is also a game of skill. The two concepts, "skill" and "gambling" are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of games of skill that involve elements of chance and become "gambling" if you wager money on it the outcome.


[ QUOTE ]
Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. If anything, as you get closer to the end of the tournament, it becomes pure gambling. My 77 vs your AKs. My KQs vs your 44. Etc.

But in the long run, as in "forever," poker is poker. If you consistently make +EV decisions, then you will make money. If you are good at maximizing that EV by manipulating your opponents and making appropriate bets, calls, and folds, then you will eventually make money in both tournaments as well as cash games.

[ QUOTE ]
What are ways to get around poker as gambling? (to make it NOT gambling)


[/ QUOTE ]

If you didn't play poker for money or any other stakes, then it wouldn't be gambling. But it wouldn't be much in the way of poker, either.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
poker is gambling due to the fact that the best chance of winning hand doesnt always win

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean that chess is gambling because the higher-rated player doesn't always win?

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker is gambling due to the fact that the best chance of winning hand doesnt always win

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean that chess is gambling because the higher-rated player doesn't always win?

[/ QUOTE ]

in chess, the player that makes the most correct plays wins. poker isn't that way, DUCY?

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What makes poker a game of skill?

[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that the decisions you make has a real effect on your long term expected outcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Close. However, by your definition of a skill game, all casino games are skill games too since there are varying degrees of -EV decisions that can lead to a steeper negative slope in the long term expected income (ie: playing roulette has a much lower return that playing slots).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that all casino games are game of skill. Ironically, however, the most skillful way to play those games is to not play.

Clearly, betting $1 on roulette has an expectation.

Betting $2 on roulette has a more negative expectation.

Thus, I'd suggest that a more skillful roulette player would be whoever bets less.

[ QUOTE ]
A person can make +EV decisions in skill games, whereas in casino games a person simply makes decisions that are all -EV(or 0 EV) but to different degrees. Skill games put the players in situations with either +EV or -EV decisions available and it is up to the player to determine which decisions are +EV and which are -EV. Non-skill games don't offer this -- all decisions are -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this.

Take an example where 50% of the pot in poker was raked (obviously an extreme example, but it's for illustrative purposes only). Poker would still be a skill game - but it would also be -EV.

Surely the amount of rake taken from the pot does not change whether poker is a game of skill... but that seems to be the implication of your line of reasoning.

In other words, I'm trying to say that the question of something being +EV or -EV is a separate issue from whether it is a game of skill.


Another, non-gambling example - driving at 200km/h clearly requires a chunk of skill (to avoid running into trees, for example). However, I believe it is also -EV, 'cause the benefits of succeeding (winning the race) are massively outweighed by the costs of crashing (dying).

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

in just clicked this tread b/c there wasn't anything else to be clicked and the answer is yes ok thanks bye

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker is gambling due to the fact that the best chance of winning hand doesnt always win

[/ QUOTE ]

Does that mean that chess is gambling because the higher-rated player doesn't always win?

[/ QUOTE ]

life is gambling because the person born with better genes and living conditions doesn't always live longer.

Also, that Michael Jordan post made no sense, but I lol'd anyway.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?


[/ QUOTE ]

lol, donkaments

And why is this in NVG? At least put it in BBV where everyone will flame you instead of just 75% of posters.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?


[/ QUOTE ]

lol, donkaments

And why is this in NVG? At least put it in BBV where everyone will flame you instead of just 75% of posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

U seem to do a very good job of having a crappy answer for everyones thread.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Do tournaments have less of a "gambling factor" than cash games?


[/ QUOTE ]

lol, donkaments

And why is this in NVG? At least put it in BBV where everyone will flame you instead of just 75% of posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

U seem to do a very good job of having a crappy answer for everyones thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

U seem to do a very good job of having a crappy avatar for everyone to have to look at in every thread.

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

I just realized that BBV no longer has the last comment made by u in every thread, better go fix that. HURRY!!!!!

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

Not the way I play it...

Re: Is poker gambling?
 

if im @ the table its mos def gambling