What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

Situation.....

All stacks 100BB, No reads other than all players seem typical for the level of uNL $25. Nobody seems looser NOR tighter than you usually encounter.

You are in Late Position

Question 1)

Middle position raises 4xBB....

What hands are you reraising with....what are you calling with?

Question 2)

After Reraising the initial 4xBB raise to 12BB what range hands should Middle position be calling with OOP?



Question 3) What should MP be reraising with here (this is a 3bet right??) Is it only AA,KK, AKs, AKo unless you are "3Beting Light"?



Any response would be great. I'm sure some of us newbies will find this very helpful in putting opponents on a hand in these reraised pots pre flop.


Cheers

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

1)What I reraise with here is player dependent, though I would always reraise with AA KK QQ JJ TT AK.
2)/3)I come back over the top with AA KK AK fold junk hands and call or reraise QQ JJ TT dependant on villain

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

3bet is when the person is LP raises the MP bet.

LP range should be dependant on his playstyle, if he's TAG and a thinking player, he can get away with loose 3bets because you will have to respect it, but his normal range may be TT+, AQo

a LAG will be 3betting in position with 88+, ATs+, KJs+, suited connectors

I'm calling OOP depending on how big the 3bet is with anything from suited connectors to medium pp's, but I'll ditch hands like AJs, AQo, or KQs. I call with these marginal hands because I have a lot of implied odds (3bettor must be 100bb or more deep, don't do this against shorties) that i will be able to stack them if i hit the flop good, or get it in with some FE when its a coinflip (pair+fd a gainst overpair)

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

Thanks for that. Interesting.

I read in Phil Gordon Little Green Book that he would rather call a reraise with small suited connecters than big cards because he is less likely to be dominated.

What if a 3bet is the second reraise what is the reraise after that? When someone reraises a 3bet?

I guess this is only with AA,KK AKs?

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

Why is everyone so freaking wild about getting it AI w/ AK PF??

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]


I read in Phil Gordon Little Green Book that he would rather call a reraise with small suited connecters than big cards because he is less likely to be dominated.


[/ QUOTE ]

With 100BB stacks, the raise is 4BB, say. Then the effective pot is about 10BB (blinds + raise + call) for a reraise, making a pot sized reraise 10% of your stack.

Sounds like crappy implied odds for suited connectors to me. Tournament bet sizing may be different to cash.

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone so freaking wild about getting it AI w/ AK PF??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great question....the only reason I put it in the range of reraising a 3bet is because of the books i've read never seem to advise folding AK. (HOH, SSHE...)

But i agree with your question after all you only hit a flop 1 in 3 roughly.................................

I just assumed from all that you read that folding AK (especially AK suited) is a long term BAD -EV play?????

Are people folding AK if their 3 bet is reraised?????????

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is everyone so freaking wild about getting it AI w/ AK PF??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great question....the only reason I put it in the range of reraising a 3bet is because of the books i've read never seem to advise folding AK. (HOH, SSHE...)

But i agree with your question after all you only hit a flop 1 in 3 roughly.................................

I just assumed from all that you read that folding AK (especially AK suited) is a long term BAD -EV play?????

Are people folding AK if their 3 bet is reraised?????????

[/ QUOTE ]

u mean 4bet , almost always yes ...its very player dependent and ill get it all in with a fish all the time ....but against any semi decent player our equity sux vs their hand range which is QQ/KK/AA ..

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Situation.....

All stacks 100BB, No reads other than all players seem typical for the level of uNL $25. Nobody seems looser NOR tighter than you usually encounter.

You are in Late Position

Question 1)

Middle position raises 4xBB....

What hands are you reraising with....what are you calling with?

Question 2)

After Reraising the initial 4xBB raise to 12BB what range hands should Middle position be calling with OOP?



Question 3) What should MP be reraising with here (this is a 3bet right??) Is it only AA,KK, AKs, AKo unless you are "3Beting Light"?



Any response would be great. I'm sure some of us newbies will find this very helpful in putting opponents on a hand in these reraised pots pre flop.


Cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

1.there's no mechanical answer some players fold a ton 2 3bets , some players rarely fold ...if i feel i have a good image and the player is folding alot of 3bets(if use RT hud it has this stat) ...also i'll 3bet with a wider range when im deep vs another deep player

2.depends if he thinks im 3betting light or not , but its difficult for him to continue w/o a premium hand because of his position ,

3.he should probably 4bet with AA/KK/QQ rly if its value and he doesn't think villain is 3betting light...if villain is 3betting light and isnt vry loose MP should 4bet a wide range of hands ...

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
u mean 4bet , almost always yes ...its very player dependent and ill get it all in with a fish all the time ....but against any semi decent player our equity sux vs their hand range which is QQ/KK/AA ..

[/ QUOTE ]

So a 4bet is the term for reraising a 3bet?

Intial raise of 4xbb
Raising to 12BB is 3bet?
Raising to 30BB is 4bet??

So your saying you wouldn't get it all in against a decent player who 3 bet you when you intially raised with AK coz their range is QQ KK AA??

So as a guide (in a vacum and also obviously taking 3 betting light out of the equation for discussion purposes) a "semi decent" player will 3 bet with AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AK (maybe AQs?)?

And will only really 4 bet with AA KK QQ?




Surely calling (instead of raising) a 3bet with AK is ok??

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

The reason you push AK is because it is +EV if their range is AA KK QQ JJ TT AK, against a nit you'd be better to fold.

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

blinds - 1 bet
say.. MP 4xbb - thats 2nd bet
BB 12xbb - 3 bet
MP all in - 4 bet

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
u mean 4bet , almost always yes ...its very player dependent and ill get it all in with a fish all the time ....but against any semi decent player our equity sux vs their hand range which is QQ/KK/AA ..

[/ QUOTE ]

So a 4bet is the term for reraising a 3bet?

Intial raise of 4xbb
Raising to 12BB is 3bet?
Raising to 30BB is 4bet??

So your saying you wouldn't get it all in against a decent player who 3 bet you when you intially raised with AK coz their range is QQ KK AA??

So as a guide (in a vacum and also obviously taking 3 betting light out of the equation for discussion purposes) a "semi decent" player will 3 bet with AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AK (maybe AQs?)?

And will only really 4 bet with AA KK QQ?




Surely calling (instead of raising) a 3bet with AK is ok??

[/ QUOTE ]

i generally would much rather call wirh AK than push/4bet with it , you could 4bet with AK but u should consider folding if villain shoves after your 4bet (this assuming villain is a decent tag)

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

if it's 100bb deep I will 4bet all in with AK, but if we're deep, say over 150bb each, I will flat it even OOP

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
blinds - 1 bet
say.. MP 4xbb - thats 2nd bet
BB 12xbb - 3 bet
MP all in - 4 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

That is great help!!!

I never counted the original blind as number 1 so it didn't make sense!!! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Is the 4 bet always a shove? Or is it generally considered a better play to push at the 4 bet stage than raising to 36 BB??

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

depends how deep you are and the size of the initial bets. if you have 100bb at nl25, then:

blinds post.
MP bets $1
you raise $4
MP 4bets $15, leaving 10 behind

or

blinds post
2 limpers
BTN bets $1.5
BB raises $6
BTN 4bets $25 all in

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

Question 1)
Im reraising with AA - KK - QQ - AK - and JJ depending on villain.

Im calling with AQ/AJ/TT small pocket pairs.


Question 2)
Think this really depends on the kind of player villain is. It's the same as with what hands you call/reraise villain with. Player dependant.

Question 3)
AA-KK-AKs-AKo and possibly QQ imo.

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

Anyone else think calling a 3bet OOP with AJ is spew? even AQo. I'd like some opinions on that

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

I almost never call a 3 bet OOP with AJ or AQo, you never know where you stand and are almost always outkicked - dominated.

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

@ Louderthanbombs

How could that be +EV? Youre dominated vs AA/KK, coinflip vs QQ JJ TT, tie vs AK

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I almost never call a 3 bet OOP with AJ or AQo, you never know where you stand and are almost always outkicked - dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh the reason I asked is because I thought you were 3betting with AJ in your first post, I re-read and realized you were just flat calling the raise with those hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

getting it in PF with AK is player dependent but you be amazed how often you are up agianst TT JJ QQ which isnt bad because there is usually dead money in the pot which make these coin flips +Ev. im not saying you cant win not playing a high varinece style like this but dont think getting it AI preflop agianst most villans is bad.

Those saying they just like to call a 4bet w/AK this is really bad DUCY?

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else think calling a 3bet OOP with AJ is spew? even AQo. I'd like some opinions on that

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.........given they will more than likely CBET the flop you have a tough decision even if you get a piece of the flop.


Unless you are very good at post flop play I agree it is pretty risky to call with AJ or AQo when calling a 3bet.

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Those saying they just like to call a 4bet w/AK this is really bad DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it becasue the likely hands that made the 4bet are AA,KK and QQ or AKs?

So you are big dog to half the hands your likely against and coin fliping with one and tie the other??

And by only calling there is no chance they fold their hand.

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Those saying they just like to call a 4bet w/AK this is really bad DUCY?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it becasue the likely hands that made the 4bet are AA,KK and QQ or AKs?

So you are big dog to half the hands your likely against and coin fliping with one and tie the other??

And by only calling there is no chance they fold their hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he is really getting at that you will only hit the flop around 40% of the time with AKs, and if you completely whiff you'll have a tough time sticking the rest of your stack in with a raggy board.

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

no not realy its just you have to push/fold here

by the time you call a 4bet youve already crossed the commitment threshold more than half your stack will already be in the pot.

so your better of pushing/folding. calling and waiting to see a flop is terrible for 2 reasons
1. you loose value the times a A or K flop becuase villian folds to your push and you collect no value from hands like QQ JJ TT.
2. if your playing correctly your money should be going in on the flop regardless of what flops because of the size of the pot.

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

[ QUOTE ]
no not realy its just you have to push/fold here

by the time you call a 4bet youve already crossed the commitment threshold more than half your stack will already be in the pot.

so your better of pushing/folding. calling and waiting to see a flop is terrible for 2 reasons
1. you loose value the times a A or K flop becuase villian folds to your push and you collect no value from hands like QQ JJ TT.
2. if your playing correctly your money should be going in on the flop regardless of what flops because of the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks monkeymaps........makes sense!!!

Finally understand that. Especially why hands like qq won't call when a K or A comes on flop but would of possibly called all in pre flop.

Cheers

Re: What does a raise...reraise.....3bet mean for hand ranges?
 

glad I can help hopefully my advice is good lol.