Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Good game tonight, I'm running well and have a solid image.

Random weird Middle Eastern regular raises in EP and is cold-called by button. Button is the early 30-something brown-haired white chick who's 8 months pregnant and is a bit of a table coach; she's stuck a lot tonight but isn't spewing. I'm in the BB and elect to call with AKo. (Eh?)

Flop: KJ4r

I bet, PFR folds, button raises. I call.

Turn: 2

I bet. Button says, in a sincere and quiet tone, "you have two pair?" and raises.

My play?

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

you just played your hand in a way that screams draw to most people. she's could easily be thinking "maybe he got lucky and wants to protect a venerable two pair hand or maybe he's betting QT. Let's raise with KQ, QQ, or AJ and make him pay. Won't cost me anymore because I'm going to showdown."

But I suppose this isn't enough info to make the decision because she could easily have JJ, KJ, 44.

how wide is her CC'ing range? do you think she would 3-bet with AK, QQ? Do you think she would cold call with KT, K9, JQ?

If she has a tight CC'ing range then you can probably fold dispite the lack of confidence you can put on her raise because there aren't a lot of hands that you are ahead of other than KQ.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you think she would 3-bet with AK? Do you think she would cold call with KT, K9, JQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and yes. Maybe not an unsuited KT or K9, but suited probably. I'd also give her AJ, but she probably views me as too solid for her to be popping me again with it.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

I would've 3 bet PF. As played I'd check/raise the flop. As played if I'm not 3 betting the flop it's to check/raise the turn. As played calldown.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Won't comment on preflop.

Shawn: What did you want to happen on the flop after you donked? I'm confused because if you want a raise from EP so you can 3-bet, you're unlikely to get it on this board by a hand you want to do it(only hands are KQ/QQ/KTs?) and are in a tough spot if he pops the turn instead.

I check raise this flop because there are few draws to push out and both players are forced to call down with a K(only KQ should be in there range, though) or a J who is forced to peel. If I donk, I'm following through and 3 betting regardless even though EP folded and you got a raise from Button instead.

As played, you donked again on a turn that obviously did not help you. I hate it because villain is probably aware of this, your hand really looks like Krag/QJ/AJ right now, and because of these 2 factors villain could be raising light or for a free showdown. I don't know anything about the villain but at this point, I would put her on a range of AK/KQ/KJ/KTs?/JJ?/QQ?. Because of this, I feel like we have to call down here.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

good post, professor ben.

shawn, i think your line here is so bizarre that you're forced to call down. in taking such an unorthodox line, you disguise your hand, but it also makes it difficult to play postflop since your opponents will be putting you on a larger range and you can't interpret their actions with the same precision. i don't mind playing a tptk hand like this occasionally (for metagame) but, on the flop, i'm pretty sure the default here is to c-r. or, 3 bet the flop when you donk.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

The MPC, having thoroughly discussed this hand, has deemed it in such a state of disarray that it is impossible to decide where to even begin dissecting this abomination.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

i don't like the way it was played pf or on the flop. It's a fairly atypical line. I like a turn call and another donk on the river.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would've 3 bet PF. As played I'd check/raise the flop. As played if I'm not 3 betting the flop it's to check/raise the turn. As played calldown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything but the part I placed in italics.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

I raise Preflop.

Flop is good.

Turn: Ive seenalot of posts lately about people giving speeches like this one. The "You ve got....." kind and in translation this means your beat.

Also why bet into a tight player when you just got raised on such a dry flop?

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

As played I would say, maybe I have Q10 and then 3-bet.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise Preflop.

Flop is good.

Turn: Ive seenalot of posts lately about people giving speeches like this one. The "You ve got....." kind and in translation this means your beat.

Also why bet into a tight player when you just got raised on such a dry flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Changed my mind about flop. After reading some of the other posts I like a c/r better to knock out possible draws. This could be a leak for me. Never quite sure if I should c/r or 3-bet.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Just realized 3-betting turn probably pretty horrible but that's just because I don't expect any reasonable player to be cold calling with KJ PF here. Given her speech that's about exactly what she probably has, what a lucky b*tch.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Eh you don't think she would 3-bet AA on button?

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Misread the OP, I had thought she did 3-bet preflop, I see now she cold-called.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

When the pregnant woman tries coaching the table tell her "One player to a hand, please."

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Shawn. Didnt read other responses yet. I played with her for like 14hrs the other day. She is pretty bad but her biggest weakness is that she plays too passively. She also misses river value bets so often it is comical. After all her jabbering the other day there was like 3 sepearate times I wanted to say to her "where is the rest of your pot" when she checked behind hands that were clearly good. I think you can call the turn and fold the river against her for this reason although I wouldn't be sad if you just folded to her turn raise as bizarre as that sounds. I think you are beat and she doesn't have much game as far as free SD plays and stuff like that.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
The MPC, having thoroughly discussed this hand, has deemed it in such a state of disarray that it is impossible to decide where to even begin dissecting this abomination.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stick around, I'll post some more that are much worse!

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Couple of things:

My preflop line is non-standard, I get it. The raiser was someone who could get spazzy postflop, and I was hoping to disguise the strength of my hand here pre so I could make more post. Bad idea? I was betting the flop planning to get 3 bets in vs the PFR, but button's involvement threw things off a bit.

Do any of you guys interpret her question as "crap, if you have 2 pair, I'm screwed"?

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
The MPC, having thoroughly discussed this hand, has deemed it in such a state of disarray that it is impossible to decide where to even begin dissecting this abomination.

[/ QUOTE ]

This gimmick account is really not funny anymore.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good game tonight, I'm running well and have a solid image.

Random weird Middle Eastern regular raises in EP and is cold-called by button. Button is the early 30-something brown-haired white chick who's 8 months pregnant and is a bit of a table coach; she's stuck a lot tonight but isn't spewing. I'm in the BB and elect to call with AKo. (Eh?)

Flop: KJ4r

I bet, PFR folds, button raises. I call.

Turn: 2

I bet. Button says, in a sincere and quiet tone, "you have two pair?" and raises.

My play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your flop play is inconsistent with just calling preflop. When you just call here in the big blind you should either have in mind check raising the flop, or donk/3bet.

If you had 3 bet preflop and lead flop, perhaps you would not 3 bet if raised on the flop. You'd have more information about the strength of your opponents hand. Because you did not 3 bet the flop here, your opponent does not think that you flopped two pair, a set, or have AK. She is looking puzzled wondering how the turn may have helped you. And if it did, you probably would have gone for a check raise on the turn. Your play just looks illogical from your opponent's point of view. She can't put you on a hand. She has something decent so she raised.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The MPC, having thoroughly discussed this hand, has deemed it in such a state of disarray that it is impossible to decide where to even begin dissecting this abomination.

[/ QUOTE ]

This gimmick account is really not funny anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]


The MPC is not here for your amusement. It exists to return credibility to these once great forums. Once you come to terms with this undeniable fact, you will thank us.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do any of you guys interpret her question as "crap, if you have 2 pair, I'm screwed"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. She could be saying "you have two pair, that's nice, more money now" .... given surfdoc's read it seems like a made hand is more likely.

although, against many players you would be right on.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

The best reason to play a strong hand strangely is because it might induce more action from a thinking player later in the hand.

The worst reason is that you sometimes don't know what this action means. And with your image, this action still probably means you lose and there's a pretty good chance you are slaughtered. The problem with player descriptions is that I often run into hands, probably twice a day or so, that completely defy reads I have on players. It may be that I'm reading players poorly, but sometimes they just get massively out of line.

That said, with your image in this spot, I'd say you're not often drawing to more than three outs. I hate this because against a decent player you've got a profitable calldown because of the bizarre way you've played the hand but against someone like you described, you're effed anyways.

-Michael

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Funny, I originally misread your post and thought she 3-bet preflop and said she had pocket aces, you're cooked. But I think you're cooked anyway. The problem is that there's no way she puts you on A-K. Does that mean she's got K-Q? It's not in her character to raise the turn here after you donk behind her flop bet. I think her most likely hand is K-J.

So after I posted my earlier (deleted) post, I played with her today. She called 2 cold from the big blind after I had 3-bet preflop, called my flop and turn bets, and the board ended up A-T-9--6-7 and she donked the river. I put her 95% on an 8. That was too low.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Hmm... is her name Sam? I played with her for a little bit in the 40 and agree with everyone description of her. Also i played with her husband in the 20, i was joking around and said, "you professional?" and he answers in a serious voice "yes" haha... wow never had someone answer that question like that.

Anyway i would 3-bet PF and would lead flop. usually 3-bet flop, but against her probably call. Her hands looks alot like KJ to me, maybe sailboats heh

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also i played with her husband in the 20, i was joking around and said, "you professional?" and he answers in a serious voice "yes" haha... wow never had someone answer that question like that.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty funny...I don't know too many professionals who are in the habit of cold-calling my raises with 78o and the like, but whatever.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

I know who this lady is - I played a lot with her a couple of weeks ago. Reraise and call down. She's a complete spaz who does like to get her chips in there with seemingly no rhyme or reason.

FWIW, I would have jammed preflop and on the flop.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know who this lady is - I played a lot with her a couple of weeks ago. Reraise and call down. She's a complete spaz who does like to get her chips in there with seemingly no rhyme or reason.

FWIW, I would have jammed preflop and on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was she on tilt (not an uncommon theme) when you played with her? It sounds like it. Maybe Shawn has to give us that info because that obviously swings everything.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know who this lady is - I played a lot with her a couple of weeks ago. Reraise and call down. She's a complete spaz who does like to get her chips in there with seemingly no rhyme or reason.

FWIW, I would have jammed preflop and on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was she on tilt (not an uncommon theme) when you played with her? It sounds like it. Maybe Shawn has to give us that info because that obviously swings everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

She was stuck big (at least a couple of racks, but she had been losing before I sat down), but didn't appear to be going on crazy monkey tilt. She'd always have a decent hand to showdown, but she'd frequently call down a lot when it looked to me she was beat.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know who this lady is - I played a lot with her a couple of weeks ago. Reraise and call down. She's a complete spaz who does like to get her chips in there with seemingly no rhyme or reason.

FWIW, I would have jammed preflop and on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was she on tilt (not an uncommon theme) when you played with her? It sounds like it. Maybe Shawn has to give us that info because that obviously swings everything.

[/ QUOTE ]

She was stuck big (at least a couple of racks, but she had been losing before I sat down), but didn't appear to be going on crazy monkey tilt. She'd always have a decent hand to showdown, but she'd frequently call down a lot when it looked to me she was beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw her do so much weird stuff with seemingly no rhyme or reason that my plan became simple against her:

1. If I have a good hand, play a big pot.

2. If I have a marginal hand, keep the pot small.

You have a good hand. Who knows what she has, but play a big pot until the situation looks bleak - if you put in the 3rd bet on the turn and get re-raised, that would be the start of that time.

She was one of the worst players that I saw during my four days at the Commerce. She lost a ton.

Edit (for Shawn): You should not doubt my ninja hand reading skills, as per your previous experience when I was sweating you that one time.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Don't know her name, not even 100% sure she's the same lady, but she's the only 8 months pregnant white 30ish woman I've played with there.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The MPC, having thoroughly discussed this hand, has deemed it in such a state of disarray that it is impossible to decide where to even begin dissecting this abomination.

[/ QUOTE ]

This gimmick account is really not funny anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]


The MPC is not here for your amusement. It exists to return credibility to these once great forums. Once you come to terms with this undeniable fact, you will thank us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone needs to go back to posting preschool:
[ QUOTE ]

Let’s take a look at the difference between a terrible reply, a bad reply, a good reply, and an excellent reply.

A terrible reply is one that offers no content. It remarks on how bad the poster plays without any indication of what the right play is or it insults the original poster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

Okay, I just got some sleep for the first time in a week. I have read all the responses now and given this a little thought. As far as preflop I think 3 bet is the standard but I don't mind the call since we can attack friendly flops and disguise our hand. We can also get away cheaply when we miss badly. If I just call here then I almost always checkraise the flop and then gas it until someone slows me down. I don't like a donk bet at all Shawn. If they both slide their cards into the muck you will feel robbed of the obligatory con-bet that so many players will make with hands like A9s or 77 or whatever. In addition, if the pfr has one of those hands he will often call and try to spike since folding looks weak and god forbid anyone ever wants to look weak at the commerce. If I do bet out I am almost always going to 3 bet and I am curious as to why you elected to stop and go?

Once you get to the strategic moment on the turn, the more I think about it, LMD is right. We have talked about this before and the speech+raise move means you are supremely fuucked. She likely plays the same against you that she does me given our similar conservative quiet white guy with glasses image. Maybe she played Sucker a little differently but I can't think of a single hand she can have here that you beat. If you tell me she shows you KQ I will have to reprogram my read on her so I think you can only hope it is AK for a chop and I am almost certain that she knows enough to 3 bet AK before the flop with her husband "the professional." So, she has a set of 4s here or KJ (yes I think she can coldcall that before the flop) like always. BTW, has she ever seen you bet/3bet the turn before after stop and going? It looks like that is your plan and when she raises to me it says she doesn't care if you do. Like I said before, I don't mind calling and then making her bet the river since she sucks at value betting and could very well check behind AK. If the board had a texture where you could counterfeit her 2 pair then this would be better but thats not the case here.

Can we get results now Shawn?

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shawn. Didnt read other responses yet. I played with her for like 14hrs the other day. She is pretty bad but her biggest weakness is that she plays too passively. She also misses river value bets so often it is comical. After all her jabbering the other day there was like 3 sepearate times I wanted to say to her "where is the rest of your pot" when she checked behind hands that were clearly good. I think you can call the turn and fold the river against her for this reason although I wouldn't be sad if you just folded to her turn raise as bizarre as that sounds. I think you are beat and she doesn't have much game as far as free SD plays and stuff like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was at Commerce this past weekend, I saw a brown haired regular from the Bellagio 15 and 30 games, I noticed she was pregers (hadn't seen her in a while) - the only thing that doesn't match is her husband, last I heard he was just playing low limit games and learning the ropes. If its the same person she plays like some odd Vegas grinders do, cold calling AKo or even AA/JJ is within her range (raises KK/QQ), in other words she plays what she thinks HPFAPs is advocating pre-flop but gets too tricky for her own good, and her understanding of the game texture/hand reading is flawed. I disagree with surfdoc about her ability to attempt a free-showdown, from my experience she overused that play but I agree she often missed river bets.

Overall I think we would agree that its safe to fold the turn based on her comment, vs this player type its usually for real, she wants to own you while staring you in the face - its an ego thing. Unfortunately I don't recall her ever talking much mid-hand so I cant add much more.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shawn. Didnt read other responses yet. I played with her for like 14hrs the other day. She is pretty bad but her biggest weakness is that she plays too passively. She also misses river value bets so often it is comical. After all her jabbering the other day there was like 3 sepearate times I wanted to say to her "where is the rest of your pot" when she checked behind hands that were clearly good. I think you can call the turn and fold the river against her for this reason although I wouldn't be sad if you just folded to her turn raise as bizarre as that sounds. I think you are beat and she doesn't have much game as far as free SD plays and stuff like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was at Commerce this past weekend, I saw a brown haired regular from the Bellagio 15 and 30 games, I noticed she was pregers (hadn't seen her in a while) - the only thing that doesn't match is her husband, last I heard he was just playing low limit games and learning the ropes. If its the same person she plays like some odd Vegas grinders do, cold calling AKo or even AA/JJ is within her range (raises KK/QQ), in other words she plays what she thinks HPFAPs is advocating pre-flop but gets too tricky for her own good, and her understanding of the game texture/hand reading is flawed. I disagree with surfdoc about her ability to attempt a free-showdown, from my experience she overused that play but I agree she often missed river bets.

Overall I think we would agree that its safe to fold the turn based on her comment, vs this player type its usually for real, she wants to own you while staring you in the face - its an ego thing. Unfortunately I don't recall her ever talking much mid-hand so I cant add much more.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not the same person. This woman is a commerce regular for a very long time (at least 2 years) and is very talkative at the table. Unless I have the wrong 30ish preggo white woman.

Re: Comm 40: I donk twice and get raised twice
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shawn. Didnt read other responses yet. I played with her for like 14hrs the other day. She is pretty bad but her biggest weakness is that she plays too passively. She also misses river value bets so often it is comical. After all her jabbering the other day there was like 3 sepearate times I wanted to say to her "where is the rest of your pot" when she checked behind hands that were clearly good. I think you can call the turn and fold the river against her for this reason although I wouldn't be sad if you just folded to her turn raise as bizarre as that sounds. I think you are beat and she doesn't have much game as far as free SD plays and stuff like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was at Commerce this past weekend, I saw a brown haired regular from the Bellagio 15 and 30 games, I noticed she was pregers (hadn't seen her in a while) - the only thing that doesn't match is her husband, last I heard he was just playing low limit games and learning the ropes. If its the same person she plays like some odd Vegas grinders do, cold calling AKo or even AA/JJ is within her range (raises KK/QQ), in other words she plays what she thinks HPFAPs is advocating pre-flop but gets too tricky for her own good, and her understanding of the game texture/hand reading is flawed. I disagree with surfdoc about her ability to attempt a free-showdown, from my experience she overused that play but I agree she often missed river bets.

Overall I think we would agree that its safe to fold the turn based on her comment, vs this player type its usually for real, she wants to own you while staring you in the face - its an ego thing. Unfortunately I don't recall her ever talking much mid-hand so I cant add much more.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not the same person. This woman is a commerce regular for a very long time (at least 2 years) and is very talkative at the table. Unless I have the wrong 30ish preggo white woman.

[/ QUOTE ]

that would explain why the husband story doesn't match, might have been two brown haired preggers (my gal is middle 20's, could be assumed she is 30 based on looks) this weekend.