The Power of Nightmares.
 

I just finished watching "The Power of Nightmares" on google video. For those of you who haven't heard of it, it's a three-part miniseries that aired on BBC in 2004. It details the histories of the neoconservative movement within the executive branch of the U.S. government and of the Islamic jihadist movement dating back to the 1940s, and describes their use of the politics of fear to keep a population in check. All in all, very interesting stuff. Each episode is one hour, but I think that the third episode gives a good synopsis of the whole series, and has the most riveting content. ( here )

I would be interested in any thoughts those of you who have seen this series could offer, and would strongly urge anyone who hasn't seen it to take an hour and watch.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

Ah, very nice. I had seen bits of this.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

BBC
Bush Bashing Coporation
Bagdad Broadcasting Corporation
Bugger Blair Corporation

All these names were given to it by memebrs of the Brit Military I used to work with. Honest professional men.

BBC on the whole tends towards decent world coverage, but to even hint that they don't posess a serious anti-American (not just anti-Bush or neocon) bias would be the worst kind of head in the sand thinking.

For those that haven't spent much time in The UK, Yank bashing is a kind of sport over there in any political discussion. Most do it in a friendly, "taking the piss out of you" way but BBC makes it a professional mission to take as many giant smelly [censored] on all things American.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

That may be, but if what they say is true, the bashing seems justified. In the end of part three, they basically say that sporadic terrorism from a greatly overestimated fringe group of radical Islam is not a threat to the health of any country as a whole, say the way that climate change is, and politicians are exaggerating the lesser dangers to grow and maintain power while ignoring the imminent ones. I agree with this, and it seems like amongst all the other Bush-bashing in the media, some of these startling facts are not discussed AT ALL, even though it would be the most credible avenue of dissent.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

The biggest problem that I have with this film is its drawing of a moral equivalency between Islamists and Neo-Conservatives.

It is a very sublte assumption, but it's there. It is, in my mind, also contrived and baseless.

The other part of the film that found completely laughable was the assertion that Al Queada is completely ficticious.

The film-makers did make some interesting points and there is some food for thought there that is undeniable. However, they undermined their points with bad logic is many places. They frequently use subjectivism, Ad Hominem, Circular Reasoning, and Post Hoc, Ergo Proctor Hoc. Not to mention appeals to ignorance.

It's been some time since I saw this film. I would love to take it apart bit by bit. However, this is a long and tedious process and would convince none of the believers in the end. So it's an exercise in futility.

I put this documentary right up there with the Loose Change video.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest problem that I have with this film is its drawing of a moral equivalency between Islamists and Neo-Conservatives.

It is a very sublte assumption, but it's there. It is, in my mind, also contrived and baseless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it more or less "contrived and baseless", in your opinion, than the assertion of unilateral moral authority by the U.S.?

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

Ah, the moral authority of the United States in not contrived and baseless. I'll tell you why.

Here's a challenge that will illustrate.

Pick a metric about quality of life or standard of living. You will find that in a little over 200 years of history, the US has produced a society which has far eclipsed any accomplishment in those areas of any other nation or civilization in the history or the world. Ever.

The belief in American exceptionalism is based in results. Concrete, undeniable, irrefutable fact. To not believe in American exceptionalism is to deny history.

This is how the moral authority of the US has been established. This is also why no other force in history has been able to compete with it.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest problem that I have with this film is its drawing of a moral equivalency between Islamists and Neo-Conservatives.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't see that. The groups' history and rise to power are intertwined, but in the film, Islamic jihadists are portrayed as much worse than neocons because of their justification in killing their own countrymen or whoever they deem non-muslim through western corruption and materialism.

Also, I don't believe the film dismisses Al-Qaeda as completely ficticious, just that their capabilities, particularly after our initial response in afghanistan, were grossly exaggerated.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, the moral authority of the United States in not contrived and baseless. I'll tell you why.

Here's a challenge that will illustrate.

Pick a metric about quality of life or standard of living. You will find that in a little over 200 years of history, the US has produced a society which has far eclipsed any accomplishment in those areas of any other nation or civilization in the history or the world. Ever.

The belief in American exceptionalism is based in results. Concrete, undeniable, irrefutable fact. To not believe in American exceptionalism is to deny history.

This is how the moral authority of the US has been established. This is also why no other force in history has been able to compete with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flawed, it assumes that because people who lived in America in the past made decisions that lead to dominance that the decisions made by current, or very recent individuals follow the same potential.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, the moral authority of the United States in not contrived and baseless. I'll tell you why.

Here's a challenge that will illustrate.

Pick a metric about quality of life or standard of living. You will find that in a little over 200 years of history, the US has produced a society which has far eclipsed any accomplishment in those areas of any other nation or civilization in the history or the world. Ever.

The belief in American exceptionalism is based in results. Concrete, undeniable, irrefutable fact. To not believe in American exceptionalism is to deny history.

This is how the moral authority of the US has been established. This is also why no other force in history has been able to compete with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flawed, it assumes that because people who lived in America in the past made decisions that lead to dominance that the decisions made by current, or very recent individuals follow the same potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

word.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, the moral authority of the United States in not contrived and baseless. I'll tell you why.

Here's a challenge that will illustrate.

Pick a metric about quality of life or standard of living.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a logical metric of moral authority.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, the moral authority of the United States in not contrived and baseless. I'll tell you why.

Here's a challenge that will illustrate.

Pick a metric about quality of life or standard of living. You will find that in a little over 200 years of history, the US has produced a society which has far eclipsed any accomplishment in those areas of any other nation or civilization in the history or the world. Ever.

The belief in American exceptionalism is based in results. Concrete, undeniable, irrefutable fact. To not believe in American exceptionalism is to deny history.

This is how the moral authority of the US has been established. This is also why no other force in history has been able to compete with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flawed, it assumes that because people who lived in America in the past made decisions that lead to dominance that the decisions made by current, or very recent individuals follow the same potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also assumes that those who made decisions that led to dominance made the right moral decisions -- as if wealth (or even overt plundering) makes right.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
That may be, but if what they say is true, the bashing seems justified. In the end of part three, they basically say that sporadic terrorism from a greatly overestimated fringe group of radical Islam is not a threat to the health of any country as a whole , say the way that climate change is, and politicians are exaggerating the lesser dangers to grow and maintain power while ignoring the imminent ones. I agree with this, and it seems like amongst all the other Bush-bashing in the media, some of these startling facts are not discussed AT ALL, even though it would be the most credible avenue of dissent.

[/ QUOTE ]

What happened to our economy after 9-11? I would guess if they did something like that every few months, our country would suffer vast economic damage. (i guess how you define "sporadic" may be different than me, but 3-4 attacks per year would pretty much be my definition.) I realize most attacks are not of that scale, but to think countries can survive "sporadic" events that include multi billion dollar buildings being destroyed, tens of thousands of jobs being lost instantly, thousands dead in a matter of minutes, and the "uncertainty" of the markets after events like 9-11 is just plain dumb. America bounced back pretty quick after 9-11, but the public has a short memory. If we had gone into a 8-10 year depression after 9-11, a lot of people would still be very pissed off, and likely have different views on American policy.

Based on some muslims I have heard, the "greatly overestimated" numbers of terrorists is complete crap. I tend to beleive the people who have escaped the middle east more than the psuedo-intellectuals who have never been there.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The biggest problem that I have with this film is its drawing of a moral equivalency between Islamists and Neo-Conservatives.

It is a very sublte assumption, but it's there. It is, in my mind, also contrived and baseless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it more or less "contrived and baseless", in your opinion, than the assertion of unilateral moral authority by the U.S.?

[/ QUOTE ]

They do not draw any "moral equivalency" between Islamists and neo-cons. In fact, if you research the history of the phrase "moral equivalency" it was developed by those with a neo-con persuasion to attack the credibility of anyone who criticises foriegn policy. e.g

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

Oh yes, it is.

An unjust society could never even come close to what we have achieved.

You don't like it, go live in Cuba.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

Um,
That wealth was acquired after a world war where this country saved Europe and Africa from the Nazi's and The Pacific from the Empire of Japan. I suppose you don't think that fighting against enemies who created concentration camps and killed vast numbers of civilians was a morally right decision? Tisk tisk.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yes, it is.

An unjust society could never even come close to what we have achieved.

You don't like it, go live in Cuba.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't forget some sort of patriotic theme music featuring a crying eagle

[ QUOTE ]
Um,
That wealth was acquired after a world war where this country saved Europe and Africa from the Nazi's and The Pacific from the Empire of Japan. I suppose you don't think that fighting against enemies who created concentration camps and killed vast numbers of civilians was a morally right decision? Tisk tisk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dropping an atom bomb on thousands of innocent civilians is clearly ok, I'm sure.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

The Rape of Nanking

The Holocaust

[ QUOTE ]
Dropping an atom bomb on thousands of innocent civilians is clearly ok, I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you will never be able to understand why.

This film might give you a vague notion, however. Pay careful attention.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Um,
That wealth was acquired after a world war where this country saved Europe and Africa from the Nazi's and The Pacific from the Empire of Japan. I suppose you don't think that fighting against enemies who created concentration camps and killed vast numbers of civilians was a morally right decision? Tisk tisk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice straw man. Way to really tear into it.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yes, it is.

An unjust society could never even come close to what we have achieved.

You don't like it, go live in Cuba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try a logical argument and maybe there will be a point to debate.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh yes, it is.

An unjust society could never even come close to what we have achieved.

You don't like it, go live in Cuba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try a logical argument and maybe there will be a point to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kaj - I want to have your baby - you're my new favorite poster [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

RB

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Rape of Nanking

The Holocaust

[ QUOTE ]
Dropping an atom bomb on thousands of innocent civilians is clearly ok, I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you will never be able to understand why.

This film might give you a vague notion, however. Pay careful attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

The holocaust is a good example of where the US failed/ were reluctant to use their power to stop something disastrous and stood by whilst one of the worlds worst atrocities took place. Most WW2 revisionist historians will give the US a very bad run regarding the circumstances of their involvement in WW2.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

The dude that came to the US to study its trends or whatever and witnessed the "fakeness" of our personal lives decided the best way to fix things would be to tell lies to the people and get them to believe heavily in religion and state and so on, does that sound about right? Sorry this sounds sloppy I was falling asleep when I watched this, only watched the first 30 minutes or so.

Anyways that [censored] really pissed me off, like the only way to help people escape from their shallow lives is to give them more bull [censored]? Did I interpret that right?

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The dude that came to the US to study its trends or whatever and witnessed the "fakeness" of our personal lives decided the best way to fix things would be to tell lies to the people and get them to believe heavily in religion and state and so on, does that sound about right? Sorry this sounds sloppy I was falling asleep when I watched this, only watched the first 30 minutes or so.

Anyways that [censored] really pissed me off, like the only way to help people escape from their shallow lives is to give them more bull [censored]? Did I interpret that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, you got it right. IMO, that dude was just jealous because he was born in the desert and never had a lawn.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ah, the moral authority of the United States in not contrived and baseless. I'll tell you why.

Here's a challenge that will illustrate.

Pick a metric about quality of life or standard of living. You will find that in a little over 200 years of history, the US has produced a society which has far eclipsed any accomplishment in those areas of any other nation or civilization in the history or the world. Ever.
The belief in American exceptionalism is based in results. Concrete, undeniable, irrefutable fact. To not believe in American exceptionalism is to deny history.
This is how the moral authority of the US has been established. This is also why no other force in history has been able to compete with it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I take HDI. And follow ofr 2006 the moral leadership of Norway.
And by the way, your post is a nice level.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ah, the moral authority of the United States in not contrived and baseless. I'll tell you why.

Here's a challenge that will illustrate.

Pick a metric about quality of life or standard of living. You will find that in a little over 200 years of history, the US has produced a society which has far eclipsed any accomplishment in those areas of any other nation or civilization in the history or the world. Ever.

The belief in American exceptionalism is based in results. Concrete, undeniable, irrefutable fact. To not believe in American exceptionalism is to deny history.

This is how the moral authority of the US has been established. This is also why no other force in history has been able to compete with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flawed, it assumes that because people who lived in America in the past made decisions that lead to dominance that the decisions made by current, or very recent individuals follow the same potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also assumes that those who made decisions that led to dominance made the right moral decisions -- as if wealth (or even overt plundering) makes right.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also assumes that it was the decisions of the political elite that made America powerful.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

aww, man..the fog of war?

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

http://cache.jalopnik.com/cars/asset...apan-Smash.jpg

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

http://www.ciai-s.net/ToraBora-map.gif

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
BBC
Bush Bashing Coporation
Bagdad Broadcasting Corporation
Bugger Blair Corporation

All these names were given to it by memebrs of the Brit Military I used to work with. Honest professional men.

BBC on the whole tends towards decent world coverage, but to even hint that they don't posess a serious anti-American (not just anti-Bush or neocon) bias would be the worst kind of head in the sand thinking.

For those that haven't spent much time in The UK, Yank bashing is a kind of sport over there in any political discussion. Most do it in a friendly, "taking the piss out of you" way but BBC makes it a professional mission to take as many giant smelly [censored] on all things American.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If they wanted to sell this to americans, they needed to use the actors from Heros, American Idol etc.

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]
What happened to our economy after 9-11? I would guess if they did something like that every few months, our country would suffer vast economic damage. (i guess how you define "sporadic" may be different than me, but 3-4 attacks per year would pretty much be my definition.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If they did something like that every few months i would agree the documentary has no crediability. As they haven't maybe they are making some valid points. At least think about it.

[ QUOTE ]
I realize most attacks are not of that scale, but to think countries can survive "sporadic" events that include multi billion dollar buildings being destroyed, tens of thousands of jobs being lost instantly, thousands dead in a matter of minutes, and the "uncertainty" of the markets after events like 9-11 is just plain dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you realize that no other attack has been on that scale? Shock and awe may have come close

[ QUOTE ]
America bounced back pretty quick after 9-11, but the public has a short memory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Off course it did. Only emotionally did 911 have much impact on the US.

[ QUOTE ]
If we had gone into a 8-10 year depression after 9-11, a lot of people would still be very pissed off, and likely have different views on American policy.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you didn't.

[ QUOTE ]
Based on some muslims I have heard, the "greatly overestimated" numbers of terrorists is complete crap. I tend to beleive the people who have escaped the middle east more than the psuedo-intellectuals who have never been there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sources?

Re: The Power of Nightmares.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Based on some muslims I have heard, the "greatly overestimated" numbers of terrorists is complete crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

after 911 the US gov, fbi/cia or whatever, estimated al kida at 200-300 members worldwide.