The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

I knew there was something about this that was bothering me and I just figured it out. I'll preface this by saying I hate the [censored] because I absolutely love dogs, but from a legal perspective, I'm not sure this makes sense to me.

Somehow or another, the law has established a different value for the lives of various animals. That is, if it was a human fighting ring (after all, humans are animals) he would obviously get life in prison, but if it was a mosquito or ant fighting ring (although you'd never do this), nobody would give a [censored].

While I must say that I agree with this system, is the law really written this way? If so, what is the "equilibrium" animal so to speak where people start caring and you could be charged with a crime?

I guess my real question is, where in the legislation does it suggest that if you have an insect fighting ring that's fine, but if you use dogs you're [censored]?

Like I said, I'm probably just a life nit.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

For the same reason people get alarmed by the prospect of dolphin getting caught in tuna nets while not giving a damn about the tuna.

You don't understand why dogs are more valuable to us than insects?

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
For the same reason people get alarmed by the prospect of dolphin getting caught in tuna nets while not giving a damn about the tuna.

You don't understand why dogs are more valuable to us than insects?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do and I agree with you if you read my OP clearly. But I want to know how this issue is addressed in legislation.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

It is addressed in this kind of way for example: (about animal testing)

[ QUOTE ]
The act’s definition of “animal” makes the act applicable to any warmblooded animal used “for research, testing, experimentation, or exhibition purposes, or as a pet; but such term excludes (1) birds, rats of the genus Rattus, and mice of the genus Mus, bred for use in research, (2) horses not used for research purposes, and (3) other farm animals....”

[/ QUOTE ]

They get very nitty about things, it's not just "don't hurt animals."

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do and I agree with you if you read my OP clearly. But I want to know how this issue is addressed in legislation.

[/ QUOTE ]

People assign value to things. A component of the value is how much some life gives to people. Obviously, many people receive a lot of joy or companionship from their pets, so they are valued more then a mosquito.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand? It's subjective of course, but pretty all of life is subjective. It sounds like you're looking for some completely objective quantification of everything.....Not going to happen.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

I think this whole thing is ridiculous.

Ray Lewis was involved in the murder of a HUMAN... the press, NFL, and general public got over it in about 12 months...

I honestly believe Vic will never play in the NFL again and I find it kind of ironic that Ray Lewis will be starting this season.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

PS... I hate Vic and his attitude... never thought he was a great QB... and I feel he is getting what he deserves... BUT, the flip side is that multiple drug / DUI offenders and guys who were associated with murder charges are still playing and getting paid millions in the NFL.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
PS... I hate Vic and his attitude... never thought he was a great QB... and I feel he is getting what he deserves... BUT, the flip side is that multiple drug / DUI offenders and guys who were associated with murder charges are still playing and getting paid millions in the NFL.

[/ QUOTE ]

But as long as it's still illegal to bet on NFL games online, the integrity of the athletes will remain intact.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

I'm a dog lover, and I'm trying to come to terms with the fact that this guy's life is completely ruined by all of this. At first glance, it does seem disproportionate. Mostly I think it's because he has so much more to lose than some random dude who's organizing dog fights. Your typical dog fighter probably has already done time and doesn't have a day job (I imagine), so getting busted and losing "everything" doesn't mean that much. It doesn't make what Vick did any worse than somebody else, but it makes it so much more colossally stupid it's unbelievable.

Also, remember that if the allegations are true, it's not like Vick went out one day and attended a dog fight and now it's all coming crashing down. If I understand the allegations correctly he bought property dedicated to the purpose of dog fighting, had people on salary managing the day-to-day of the operation, personally bought and killed dogs in the practice of the operation, provided all the money including that used for the gambling side of it, etc etc etc. To do all of this over an extended period of time and not either stop because of the morality of it OR because of the risk to your career is mind-boggling.

Because of this I think what he did IS way worse than having a few too many and driving a car, for instance. Probably 5,000,000 people did that this weekend. Also, Ray Lewis wasn't convicted of anything. If he had been, things would be different for him (and again, I'm assuming that Vick is doing time). If you want to argue that he's been convicted by the media and the public without getting his fair day in court, so be it. But prior to being acquitted I think Lewis was getting a pretty fair share of heat.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

A local radio meathead here actually said that what Vick was accused of was way worse than what Kobe was accused of.

WTF.

I think it's worse to rape one woman than to torture and kill all the dogs on earth.

Vick is a scumbag if he ran a dogfighting ring, but he's far less of a scumbag than someone like, say, Warren Moon, who beat the living [censored] out of his wife to the point that his child said 'my daddy is killing my mommy' to the 911 operator. Moon is in the Hall of Fame, Vick's career is over.

Something's not right here.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

Drew, nod.

I think it's a combo of the pro leagues' horrors of gambling, the relatively novel nature of the charges, and the way people consistently sympathize with animals over humans.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

The dog fighting carries a max penalty of 1 year. The gambling aspect carries a max of 5 years. If he gets the racketeering charge added on I think that is another 15 years max. The law does not protect dogs moreso than humans, it is just that the media has picked up on the animal issue due to the high profile defendant.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A local radio meathead here actually said that what Vick was accused of was way worse than what Kobe was accused of.

WTF.

I think it's worse to rape one woman than to torture and kill all the dogs on earth.

Vick is a scumbag if he ran a dogfighting ring, but he's far less of a scumbag than someone like, say, Warren Moon, who beat the living [censored] out of his wife to the point that his child said 'my daddy is killing my mommy' to the 911 operator. Moon is in the Hall of Fame, Vick's career is over.

Something's not right here.

[/ QUOTE ]well put

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's worse to rape one woman than to torture and kill all the dogs on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely disagree, 100%

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

Let's not forget about that scumbag Leonard Little. He drove a car while 2 times the legal limit of intoxication and killed a mother. He only did 90 days in jail. Why is this guy still allowed to play? If he can play, then Ron Mexico should be allowed to play.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

People who intentionally hurt animals or enjoy watching animals hurt each other are sick, sick, sick and morally depraved. If Vick is guilty of accused acts, his mindset and behavior is a serious detriment to the human race. Lock him up.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

Good thread. There are some very interesting and well thought out comments in this post. Some thoughts:

-Law enforcement has, in recent years leading up to the Vick case, taken a more aggressive stance against animal fighting. So not just dogs, but [censored] fighting as well (still legal in some states). So it behooved them to really play up the Vick case in the media as animal fighting in general is more on their radar screen than it was say 5 years ago. Part of the reason for this is that a lot of other illegal activity goes along with the fights, which themselves are hideous to begin with. Among these crimes include narcotics (possession and trafficking), drunk driving, money laundering, and others.

-Dog fighting is a real hillbilly, red neck activity. Not something you'd expect to see a black guy with a lot of bling on doing. So the media has subtly been interested in this seeming social dichotomy as well.

-The proof of whether or not this is overblown is really in the pudding. The public's outrage against this makes it, whether or not you agree with it, a major story. I personally agree with the people who think this is nothing compared to your average athlete wife-beating case (Jason Kidd, Robert Parish, Warren Moon, Michael Strahan, and on and on), and I love animals in general, but clearly America disagrees. Robert Parish pushed his pregnant girlfriend down a flight of stairs and severely injured her. How many of you know this, or care? Jim Brown threw a woman off a balcony. Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

Seems America cares more about dogs than female humans, otherwise Robert Parish and Jason Kidd would be 100 times more hated than Vick.

And don't even get me started on OJ. That Vick will go to prison and he didn't is beyond absurd.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair to Kidd, Joumana seemed like a huge bitch

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair to Kidd, Joumana seemed like a huge bitch

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this totally justified it.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems America cares more about dogs than female humans

[/ QUOTE ]
A dog will stop chewing his bone and run across the room to give you head the second you drop your pants. How many female humans do you know that do that?

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's worse to rape one woman than to torture and kill all the dogs on earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely disagree, 100%

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair to Kidd, Joumana seemed like a huge bitch

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this totally justified it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course not, but it does bring up something. We do tend to assign human beings some responsiblity for the situations that they find themselves in, regardless of their actual culpability. We are somehow less compassionate towards a battered wife than towards a beaten dog because of this.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
PS... I hate Vic and his attitude... never thought he was a great QB... and I feel he is getting what he deserves... BUT, the flip side is that multiple drug / DUI offenders and guys who were associated with murder charges are still playing and getting paid millions in the NFL.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but you're not taking into account that this is a new commissioner who doesn’t put up with this crap. I think the past would have been different had he been commissioner then, too.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dog fighting is a real hillbilly, red neck activity. Not something you'd expect to see a black guy with a lot of bling on doing. So the media has subtly been interested in this seeming social dichotomy as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dogfighting is popular (in certain places) among both white rednecks and southern black people. Mike Vick is from Virginia. It is not at all unusual that he would be exposed to it or be interested in it when he was a kid.

All the people saying 'our society cares more about dogs than women.' Two things

1. Until recently in human history, a man's right to beat his wife was fairly well recognized all over the world, including the US. It is still accepted in some cultures. Obviously that sucks, but I just want some of you to put this in perspective when you are trying to comprehend the lack of outrage.

2. Domestic violence and violence against women in general is usually treated with more of a 'he-said, she-said' attitude than it should be, again because we men are protecting ourselves from the consequences of our violent acts. 'Nobody knows what really happened except those two who were there.' Well, the hospital records give you some clue, you [censored] bastard.

But still, saying we care more about a dog than a woman is wrong. We care more about celebrity than we do about a woman. From a legal standpoint, the dogfighting is the least serious of the charges against Vick.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

People have become over-exposed and desensitized to houman violence. Its the same reasom the saddest scene in a movie is if the dog dies versus if a human dies.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

Many of you seem to argue like the guy who gets pulled over for going 70 mph in a 50 mph zone and says" But, there was a guy that passed me going 90 mph. How come you're not giving him a ticket."

Judge each individual act for what it is. If you kill your gf with a knife I'm pretty sure the judge won't go easy on you if you argument is "Well, OJ got acquitted."

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good thread. There are some very interesting and well thought out comments in this post. Some thoughts:

-Law enforcement has, in recent years leading up to the Vick case, taken a more aggressive stance against animal I personally agree with the people who think this is nothing compared to your average athlete wife-beating case (Jason Kidd, Robert Parish, Warren Moon, Michael Strahan, and on and on), and I love animals in general, but clearly America disagrees. Robert Parish pushed his pregnant girlfriend down a flight of stairs and severely injured her. How many of you know this, or care? Jim Brown threw a woman off a balcony. Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

Seems America cares more about dogs than female humans, otherwise Robert Parish and Jason Kidd would be 100 times more hated than Vick.

And don't even get me started on OJ. That Vick will go to prison and he didn't is beyond absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference in human on human violence is that there are complex psychological and interpersonal factors that go into it. Dogs are totally innocent creatures that are inferior to us in every way.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my real question is, where in the legislation does it suggest that if you have an insect fighting ring that's fine, but if you use dogs you're [censored]?


[/ QUOTE ]

As ridiculous as it sounds, I actually like this question a lot.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good thread. There are some very interesting and well thought out comments in this post. Some thoughts:

-Law enforcement has, in recent years leading up to the Vick case, taken a more aggressive stance against animal I personally agree with the people who think this is nothing compared to your average athlete wife-beating case (Jason Kidd, Robert Parish, Warren Moon, Michael Strahan, and on and on), and I love animals in general, but clearly America disagrees. Robert Parish pushed his pregnant girlfriend down a flight of stairs and severely injured her. How many of you know this, or care? Jim Brown threw a woman off a balcony. Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

Seems America cares more about dogs than female humans, otherwise Robert Parish and Jason Kidd would be 100 times more hated than Vick.

And don't even get me started on OJ. That Vick will go to prison and he didn't is beyond absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference in human on human violence is that there are complex psychological and interpersonal factors that go into it. Dogs are totally innocent creatures that are inferior to us in every way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand your point here. Are you implying that the events leading to a 7 foot man pushing a pregnant woman down the stairs are psychologically complex enough that it might be justified?

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dog fighting is a real hillbilly, red neck activity. Not something you'd expect to see a black guy with a lot of bling on doing. So the media has subtly been interested in this seeming social dichotomy as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dogfighting is popular (in certain places) among both white rednecks and southern black people. Mike Vick is from Virginia. It is not at all unusual that he would be exposed to it or be interested in it when he was a kid.

All the people saying 'our society cares more about dogs than women.' Two things

1. Until recently in human history, a man's right to beat his wife was fairly well recognized all over the world, including the US. It is still accepted in some cultures. Obviously that sucks, but I just want some of you to put this in perspective when you are trying to comprehend the lack of outrage.

2. Domestic violence and violence against women in general is usually treated with more of a 'he-said, she-said' attitude than it should be, again because we men are protecting ourselves from the consequences of our violent acts. 'Nobody knows what really happened except those two who were there.' Well, the hospital records give you some clue, you [censored] bastard.

But still, saying we care more about a dog than a woman is wrong. We care more about celebrity than we do about a woman. From a legal standpoint, the dogfighting is the least serious of the charges against Vick.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think it has more to do with the fact that this is the first time an athlete (or any major celebrity) has been brought down in an illicit dog fighting ring. Wife and girlfriend beating is nothing new. That doesn't mean it isn't worse though.

The point about men being allowed to beat up women in other cultures is totally irrelevant. This interest in this case is excluded to mainstream America. I don't think many people in Iran know who Michael Vick is.

In America, domestic violence is unacceptable both in the eyes of the law and the eyes of normal, law-abiding citizens.

I guess people don't react strongly when a Jason Kidd or Warren Moon type beats up a woman because they don't expect much better from them.

The Vick case has brought about public outrage because, up until it, most people weren't aware of just how brutally these animals are treated in these events. Domestic violence is terrible, but it's not some novelty.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems America cares more about dogs than female humans

[/ QUOTE ]
A dog will stop chewing his bone and run across the room to give you head the second you drop your pants. How many female humans do you know that do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never get serious with a girl who wouldn't give me head anytime I wanted it.

I'm sorry that you have had to resort to animals for this purpose.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a combo of the pro leagues' horrors of gambling...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is exactly it--at least, this is it for me and the NFL. The dog fighting is odious to be sure, but that all by itself wouldn't have derailed his career all that much. Remember, when they first found the dog-training facilities a few months ago, no one made a big deal out of it at all. The issue really didn't explode until the federal indictment came.

Dogfighting by itself might be a six-to-eight game suspension, judging by how Roger Goodell is dishing it out, but the illegal gambling charge and the potential RICO charge make Vick look much worse in the NFL's eyes.

Now to be sure, there are loads of people flipping out over the dogfighting alone. My guess is that's partly because the media is making a big deal out of it, and partly because it's the kind of crime that rarely makes it to the front pages. People are desensitized to people killing other people, but not so much when it comes to people killing dogs.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
People have become over-exposed and desensitized to houman violence. Its the same reasom the saddest scene in a movie is if the dog dies versus if a human dies.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair to Kidd, Joumana seemed like a huge bitch

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. She is a nut-job. But that doesn't come close to excusing the crime.

Any man who lays his hands on his wife/girlfriend is a pathetic, cowardly, piece of [censored] in my opinion. No exceptions. Sorry if this applies to any of your fathers or other people you know, but it is true.

Also, anyone who hunts for sport, or ever has, has no business passing any judgment on Michael Vick or any of the other low-life pieces of trash in this country who engage in dog fighting rings. At least in dog fighting the animal has a chance to live.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair to Kidd, Joumana seemed like a huge bitch

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this totally justified it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course not, but it does bring up something. We do tend to assign human beings some responsiblity for the situations that they find themselves in, regardless of their actual culpability. We are somehow less compassionate towards a battered wife than towards a beaten dog because of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point would be marginally valid if every woman who has ever been beaten were a crazy bitch.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dogs are totally innocent creatures that are inferior to us in every way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you suck your own dick?

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

We have no idea why Parrish pushed her down the stairs (I have not even heard of this incident. If someone can find a link I'd appreciate it.) However I will say that often in spouse on spouse abuse, the emotional hurt goes both ways. The violence, and please don't misunderstand me as I'm not saying its justified, IS NOT AS DEPRAVED AS some a**hole seeing animals hurt to get his kicks. This is morally worse IMO and those who condone such behavior fall far lower on the chain than those who have let their emotions get the best of them in soured relationships

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jason Kidd beat the crap out of his wife Joumana and got a slap on the wrist.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be fair to Kidd, Joumana seemed like a huge bitch

[/ QUOTE ]
She had it coming to her LDO.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]

The point about men being allowed to beat up women in other cultures is totally irrelevant. This interest in this case is excluded to mainstream America. I don't think many people in Iran know who Michael Vick is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you about the novelty of the charges being a big issue in this case, but I think you missed my point here. Not that woman-beating is ok in other parts of the world now, but that it has a long history in our own society, and in the societies of many recent immigrants to America.

In other words, even though we tell people domestic violence is wrong, there are a lot of people who have been a part of it (and in a sense 'learned' it from their own parents or cultures). Much the same way racism is universally denounced in the media, but many people experience it or are taught it in their own lives.

It's kind of a tangential point anyway.

Re: The Mike Vick case... am I a life nit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We have no idea why Parrish pushed her down the stairs (I have not even heard of this incident. If someone can find a link I'd appreciate it.) However I will say that often in spouse on spouse abuse, the emotional hurt goes both ways. The violence, and please don't misunderstand me as I'm not saying its justified, IS NOT AS DEPRAVED AS some a**hole seeing animals hurt to get his kicks. This is morally worse IMO and those who condone such behavior fall far lower on the chain than those who have let their emotions get the best of them in soured relationships

[/ QUOTE ]

Emotional hurt may go both ways, but physical hurt goes only one way. Sounds like you're trying to make up excuses for huge giant men kicking the [censored] out of their girlfriends and wives. Again I say, WTF

No one is "condoning" dogfighting but I can't understand people who think it is worse than domestic violence.