What should I do with KK here?
 

What would you do here? (Villian is loose 40% VPIP, semi-agressive)

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00/$2.00 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

BB (200.00) (Hero)
MP2 (75.42)
MP3 (397.00)
CO (38.00)
Button (30.30)
SB (244.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP3 calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10.00</font>, MP3 calls $8.00, CO calls $8.00,

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $33 )
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $91.00</font>,

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

villian stats (VPIP 40/ PFR 2/ AF 2,5 (0 preflop AF))

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

That's really tough, I hate plays like this.

I'm inexperienced, so take my rambling with a grain of salt.

But looking at the flop, I guess his most likely holding is trips or AA. I can't see him calling your preflop raise with 9J, 9T or 56s.

The other possibility is a bluff, guessing you are holding two high cards and have totally missed the flop. Afterall, if he hit a great hand, he'd want you to call, not scare you away, and maybe would not have gone all-in with a scary looking bet.

It's a toughie for sure. Will be interested to see what he had if you played it out.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

I can see him calling with 78, 56, even 9J. He has position and if he hits he guesses he's gonna get paid off.

Hard decision really, the biggest problem is that you have no position, you could call that and fold the turn if it gets scary or straight fold. If I have a bad feeling I probably fold here.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

Let's suppose the villain always has a hand good enough to call a push. Then pushing is better than folding if you win enough against the villain's range. Pushing risks $170 to gain $170+$40+$33 = $243, ignoring the rake, so pushing is better than folding if you win at least 41% of the time. This doesn't mean you have to be ahead 41% of the time. If you usually have about 15% equity when behind (much less against a straight, slightly less against a set, more against two pair) and 65% equity when ahead, then you need to be ahead (41-15)/(65-15) = 52% of the time. I think you are ahead a bit more than this against a very loose villain who usually raises instead of calling postflop, so I think pushing is better than folding.

I think pushing is better than calling, since you are out of position and have an information disadvantage. If you call such a big raise, you have narrowed your range mainly to good pairs, probably an overpair, and while the villain doesn't know which one, that would rarely matter. Just calling would let the villain play almost perfectly against you.

So, I recommend pushing.

By the way, when you raise outside the blinds, it may be natural to raise about 4 BB + 1 for each limper. That's a rule of thumb used by many people. However, this says nothing about the natural size of a raise from the blinds, when you are out of position against limpers who rarely have strong hands, but often have speculative hands. I normally make a much larger raise from the blinds when I raise.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

I am a newbie as well and this is above my limits, but I might would put him on a flush draw. Say AK of diamonds, or he could also be holding AA, although he might would of raised pf with AA. I think his most likely holding is a flush draw probably the nuts. It could be an absolute bluff, I myself would probably call and lose my stack when he turns trips over or catches the flush by the river. That is why I am still small stakes though, can't make the big laydowns.
What did he have btw?

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

Baby Mantis: that sounds likely mate! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Although He can't have the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] as that one is in our hero's hand.

Maybe A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Possibly 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (I guess)

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

oops i thought it was the K of hearts I misread!!!

Sry.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

Call, and push the turn if it is a diamond (since he might not have the flush draw, and if he does, you have a redraw), or a non-diamond other than 6, 9, or Jack.

Actually, a read more about his likelihood to semi-bluff raise would be usesul. I'm assuming a very large range, like this.

Board: 7d 8d Tc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.067% 42.11% 01.96% 20010 930.50 { KdKs }
Hand 1: 55.933% 53.98% 01.96% 25649 930.50 { 77+, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, J9s, 97s, 87s, 6d5d }


So, if a 2c shows up, for example, it changes to this.

Board: 7d 8d Tc 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.881% 44.84% 01.04% 947 22.00 { KdKs }
Hand 1: 54.119% 53.08% 01.04% 1121 22.00 { 77+, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, J9s, 97s, 87s, 6d5d }

And a Qd makes it look like this,

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.846% 41.94% 00.90% 812 17.50 { KdKs }
Hand 1: 57.154% 56.25% 00.90% 1089 17.50 { 77+, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, J9s, 97s, 87s, 6d5d }

But a 9, for example, leaves you pretty bad vs his range.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,892 games 0.005 secs 378,400 games/sec

Board: 7d 8d Tc 9s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 25.238% 17.55% 07.69% 332 145.50 { KdKs }
Hand 1: 74.762% 67.07% 07.69% 1269 145.50 { 77+, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, J9s, 97s, 87s, 6d5d }

So, without more of a read, I think pushing a good turn is good, and c/f a bad turn is good.

But if you can narrow his range some, you might be able to just fold to the flop raise. Vs many of the guys I play with, I'd fold. But pushing is not very appealing either. And calling still leaves you with a big committment problem OOP. So, I say call and conditionally commit based on the turn card might be OK. And folding is OK, too. I wouldn't just push the flop, however.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

I def do not think he has AA. The only time people limp with AA is to re-raise the raiser. That didn't happen so I could see him with 910d, any Ax diamonds, J9diamonds, 56diamonds, ect. You maybe ahead to a few hands but I guarantee he has a million outs to the winner. What would he do this with that we beat though? He could even possible have a set. I think we are coinflipping against a 4 flush and straight draw. This just doesn't look promising.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $33 )
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $91.00</font>,

[/ QUOTE ]

First, this guy is described as loose and semi-aggressive, so I can see him having flopped the straight with 69 and 9J suited or not.

Second, the overbet may be designed to protect his straight against the flush draw.

I'm inclined to fold out of position.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

My gut instinct is to fold this.

The hands that you want to see are QQ, JJ or AT. QQ and JJ are not hands that most players limp with and then call a raise. And AT really can't be that happy here except AdTd which is in pretty good shape.

The problem is that you hand is very unlikely to improve. Whatever villain did this with, unless a stone cold bluff, is very likely to improve if not be best right now like a set.

Another problem is that CO is still in the hand so MP3's raise is even stronger than if you were heads up. A set might normally smooth call here but that board is not friendly to a set so I would also raise big here with a set.

You're shown strength twice in a row and now you are at a wall. It doesn't look good at all. You're out $30 at this point and my feeling is if you continue you will be out $200.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

OP is a beginner and plays 200NL?

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

I'd fold here, for a number of reasons.

This raise could easily be a flopped set or straight that's guarding against the flush draw, or at BEST a semi-bluff.


You're only hoping to see something like QQ, JJ, or 99, or air...I don't think these are as likely. With just this info (for me, anyways) it's bad enough but...

CO is still left to act. A plan to call the bet and then push a blank on the turn goes to shreads if CO pushes. It's to murky for my taste.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

If you've run into the first person I've ever seen limp/call AA, then so be it. I'd tend to ignore that possibility.

The fact that he called your raise preflop somewhat reduces the odds of a made straight, but he's so loose preflop that I can't be sure. Does he call a lot of raises preflop? If not, it's probably not the made straight.

If I had to guess, I'd say he flopped a set or an OESFD and is trying to get the money in, in case his hand goes way down in value on the turn. If he's loose enough when calling raises preflop, he might even have top pair with an OESFD. Yikes.

I can't really see much of anything you're a favorite against except for a bluff. If he makes a lot of big bluffs, you might call. Otherwise, dump it.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

It’s a damn difficult hand in my opinion.

Obviously you have different oppnions. Also the experienced players like pzhon, Albert Moulton and PantsOnfire. You experienced guys have three completely different approaches on what to do. Pzhon recommends push, Albert Moulton: call, push and PantsOnfire: fold. It’s all good advice, even though that it’s completely different. That’s just underlining that the hand is not obvious.

My hand range is pretty close to Albert, although a little different on the pairs. I actually think villain would raise TT-AA preflop (I only have 100 hands on villain (I forgot to tell).

64,14% (77-99, T9, J9, 97s, 87s, Ad*d, 6d5d)
35,86% (kdks)

To this kind of range we should not push, we have to win 41% with the given pot odds as calculated by pzhon.

Because of the nastiness of the table, I would be inclined to fold.

Unfortunately I didn’t ;-) . Here is what actually happened:
Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00/$2.00 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

BB (200.00) (Hero)
MP2 (75.42)
MP3 (397.00)
CO (38.00)
Button (30.30)
SB (244.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP3 calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10.00</font>, MP3 calls $8.00, CO calls $8.00,

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $33 )
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $91.00</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises All-In $190.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises All-In $387.00</font>,

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $524 )


River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ( $524 )


Results:
Hero has K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
MP3 has 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Outcome: MP3 wins $408.00


Even though I would fold there is a problem in this approach. If villain is not passive (which he is not), people will tend to walk all over you after you folded something like this (they will treat you like a doormat as on of my poker friends expresses it). That’s why a call is not so bad either, as suggested by Albert.

Re: What should I do with KK here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do here? (Villian is loose 40% VPIP, semi-agressive)

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00/$2.00 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

BB (200.00) (Hero)
MP2 (75.42)
MP3 (397.00)
CO (38.00)
Button (30.30)
SB (244.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, MP3 calls $2.00, CO calls $2.00, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10.00</font>, MP3 calls $8.00, CO calls $8.00,

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $33 )
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $91.00</font>,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an easy fold against a typical villain of the type you described. He has a str8, two pair, or trips here a lot and when he is semi-bluffing your not even that far ahead or maybe even behind (if he has a str8 and flush draw). The only thing you are way in front of is a bluff. If you just call your going to be sitting there on the turn with $110 left looking at a $190 pot - getting nearly 3-1 to call a turn push. Folding on the turn getting this price would be bad IMO.

Against most villains I would advocate checking the flop. Any thinking villain is going to be able to guess you didn't raise 5bb with (suited) connectors from the bb. Thus, the flop bet gives aggressive players the opportunity to put pressure on you (pressure your hand can't take) with a raise. Furthermore, the board is very coordinated with the type of hand that lots of villains would check-call a pre-flop raise from middle position with. By checking you avoid the prospect of a raise and have the opportunity to get to a showdown cheaper (which is what you want with KK on a board like this).

Lucky