Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

In another thread I agree that it might be plausible that God will punish atheists because he thinks their atheism is merely an excuse to defy him. In other words no atheist legitimitely disbelieves. There are ulterior motives involved. I think that is Not Ready's stance.

I go on to claim that the above does not apply to monotheists who believe in a personal God. When they disagree with, lets say Protestants, it is not due to ulterior motives but simply excusable confusion. But Protestants like Not Ready, if I understand him correctly, don't accept that claim. A slight amount of confusion is legitimate and thus excusable. Eg Catholics. But anything more isn't. Because it is again not simply confusion and ignorance but also ulterior motives.

Jews stick to their religion in the face of obvious evidence it is wrong, because they don't want to make the sacrifices Christianity demands of them. Ditto Muslims. But what about Mormons? Obviously the founders of that religion may have had ulterior motives to stray from Protestanism. And the original practitioners had a BIG possible ulterior motive. But what about now? Why don't Protestants believe the man in the street Mormon won't go to heaven if he sticks to his religion? Do they still think that it is ulterior motives that keeps these people believing in something nonsensical, or do they admit that they genuinely believe these admittedly nutty details? And if they are genuine beliefs without ulterior motives, how can Protestants think that their God/Jesus, both whom Mormon's worship and generally obey, will give them the ultimate punishment?

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

I can first hand say that it is unequivocally without ulterior motives that these people believe in the divinity and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and that Mormons genuinely believe in all the nutty details ( indeed they are absolutely convinced of the details ), of their religion, which recognizes Jesus as the God and creator of this world, the God that sacrificed himself for the salvation of all mankind and resurrected on the third day. The very God, who not only taught the everlasting gospel in the old world, but also taught the gospel on the American continent.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

You keep trying to point out through a logical chain of reasoning that the God in which many Christians profess to believe must be manifestly unjust. Expect more silence, evasion, or at best, rationalization.

If cornered, the believer will simply say his God is "somehow" just in some way we cannot really comprehend. So if Mormons are condemned to hell, it's because by definition they genuinely deserve it.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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You keep trying to point out through a logical chain of reasoning that the God in which many Christians profess to believe must be manifestly unjust. Expect more silence, evasion, or at best, rationalization.

If cornered, the believer will simply say his God is "somehow" just in some way we cannot really comprehend. so if mormons are condemned to hell, it's because by definition they genuinely deserve it .

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What a silly statement to make.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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You keep trying to point out through a logical chain of reasoning that the God in which many Christians profess to believe must be manifestly unjust. Expect more silence, evasion, or at best, rationalization.

If cornered, the believer will simply say his God is "somehow" just in some way we cannot really comprehend. so if mormons are condemned to hell, it's because by definition they genuinely deserve it .

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What a silly statement to make.

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You know that I agree that's a silly statement, right? Or are you saying my claim that it's something some Christians would say is silly?

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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You keep trying to point out through a logical chain of reasoning that the God in which many Christians profess to believe must be manifestly unjust. Expect more silence, evasion, or at best, rationalization.

If cornered, the believer will simply say his God is "somehow" just in some way we cannot really comprehend. so if mormons are condemned to hell, it's because by definition they genuinely deserve it .

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What a silly statement to make.

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You know that I agree that's a silly statement, right? Or are you saying my claim that it's something some Christians would say is silly?

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Sorry, I know you agree it's a silly statement.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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You keep trying to point out through a logical chain of reasoning that the God in which many Christians profess to believe must be manifestly unjust. Expect more silence, evasion, or at best, rationalization.

If cornered, the believer will simply say his God is "somehow" just in some way we cannot really comprehend. so if mormons are condemned to hell, it's because by definition they genuinely deserve it .

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What a silly statement to make.

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You know that I agree that's a silly statement, right? Or are you saying my claim that it's something some Christians would say is silly?

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Sorry, I know you agree it's a silly statement.

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Some would go for the sillier statement that anything god does is good hence if they go to hell without deserving it then its good they go to hell without deserving it.

chez

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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Quote:

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You keep trying to point out through a logical chain of reasoning that the God in which many Christians profess to believe must be manifestly unjust. Expect more silence, evasion, or at best, rationalization.

If cornered, the believer will simply say his God is "somehow" just in some way we cannot really comprehend. so if mormons are condemned to hell, it's because by definition they genuinely deserve it .



What a silly statement to make.



You know that I agree that's a silly statement, right? Or are you saying my claim that it's something some Christians would say is silly?



Sorry, I know you agree it's a silly statement.


Some would go for the sillier statement that anything god does is good hence if they go to hell without deserving it then its good they go to hell without deserving it.

chez


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Some would go for the silliest statement that the finite, sinful creature has the right and ability to judge the morally perfect, righteous Creator.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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Quote:

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You keep trying to point out through a logical chain of reasoning that the God in which many Christians profess to believe must be manifestly unjust. Expect more silence, evasion, or at best, rationalization.

If cornered, the believer will simply say his God is "somehow" just in some way we cannot really comprehend. so if mormons are condemned to hell, it's because by definition they genuinely deserve it .



What a silly statement to make.



You know that I agree that's a silly statement, right? Or are you saying my claim that it's something some Christians would say is silly?



Sorry, I know you agree it's a silly statement.


Some would go for the sillier statement that anything god does is good hence if they go to hell without deserving it then its good they go to hell without deserving it.

chez


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Some would go for the silliest statement that the finite, sinful creature has the right and ability to judge the morally perfect, righteous Creator.

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yes judging him good would be silly, personally I don't judge him at all.

hypothetical conversation between NR and god

god: ah NR good to see you in the after-life
NR: hi god
god: the good news is you were more or less right about everything. and you led a good life just like I asked.
NR: Yes!
god: More good news is that that means I send you to hell
NR: ?
god: you understand that's good don't you?
NR: of course god, everything you do is good.

chez

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

I don't get the obsession with Heaven and Hell. Sounds like this debate is occurring about 500 years too late. You don't actually believe these places are real, do you? If not, why is this an interesting question, other than to highlight how silly religious beliefs can be?

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

<font color="blue"> In another thread I agree that it might be plausible that God will punish atheists because he thinks their atheism is merely an excuse to defy him. In other words no atheist legitimitely disbelieves. </font>

Why? Why would you agree with this? It's clearly untrue.

I think you concede far too many points to make another point. Even if that point might be stronger, it's not a good debating tactic. If you're going to give up that many points to make another one, it should be a lock. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a lock counter-point to a religious person.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

"that the finite, sinful creature has the right and ability to judge the morally perfect, righteous Creator."

The basis of authoritarianism. Don't use your brain to think oryour heart to judge; I alone know what is right and best of good for you; just do and accept. If not, go to hell.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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The basis of authoritarianism. Don't use your brain to think oryour heart to judge


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Something has to be the final judge, the ultimate authority. Whatever you pick, that's your authority.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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Some would go for the silliest statement that the finite, sinful creature has the right and ability to judge the morally perfect, righteous Creator.

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are you not judging him??

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

But shouldn't God allow people to use their God-given intelligence to decide? Does he really want them to blindly accept? Should they blindly accept political or any other worldly authority? Is God really a Leninist?

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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are you not judging him??


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Yes, by His standard, not my own knowledge or ability.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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But shouldn't God allow people to use their God-given intelligence to decide? Does he really want them to blindly accept? Should they blindly accept political or any other worldly authority? Is God really a Leninist?


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He does allow you. And we don't blindly accept.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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are you not judging him??


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Yes, by His standard, not my own knowledge or ability .

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Hmm.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

On what someone says his standard is. You have no way of knowing his standard.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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are you not judging him??


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Yes, by His standard, not my own knowledge or ability.

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ok, that's impossible.

...unless you're doing the usual thing where you make up your own definitions of words in order to completely derail the discussion and make it impossible to argue with you.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

I thought you said we don't have the right to judge, that we must accept since he is perfect and we can never understand his perfection.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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ok, that's impossible.


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Why?

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.unless you're doing the usual thing where you make up your own definitions of words in order to completely derail the discussion and make it impossible to argue with you.


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I get my definitions from the Bible or the dictionary. Which do you think I've made up? Or do you just like to make irrelevant accusations you never support like most of the atheists here?

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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On what someone says his standard is.


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If you mean God's, then yes, what God says His standard is. What's the alternative?

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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I thought you said we don't have the right to judge, that we must accept since he is perfect and we can never understand his perfection.


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We're using the word judge equivocally. You have to make a judgment to accept or reject God's judgment.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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ok, that's impossible.


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Why?

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because you can't judge without making use of your ability to judge and your own knowledge.


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.unless you're doing the usual thing where you make up your own definitions of words in order to completely derail the discussion and make it impossible to argue with you.


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I get my definitions from the Bible or the dictionary. Which do you think I've made up? Or do you just like to make irrelevant accusations you never support like most of the atheists here?

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i don't know, maybe "ability," "judge," "knowledge," it's hard to say.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

God doesn't say. Someone or some group says that God says. That's how they get you to believe there's no choice in the matter, He's perfect and you can't even begin to understand, so just follow and obey or go to hell.

And when people just follow their infallible god you get 9/11 and other such tragedies.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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And when people just follow their infallible god you get 9/11 and other such tragedies.


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You have no choice but to follow something or someone.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

But honestly following the truth will lead to constant revising and reneging in every sphere.

That is what mysteriously eludes you.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

Fine. But don't tell me the imaginary being you choose to follow is not understood by me because He is perfect and knows better and I'm not and can't begin to understand his magnificence.

This is what Lenin and Mao told the people of their countries: that they understood the Higher Order of things about which they were ignorant and following their lead would take them to the Promised Land. It's a recipe for disaster in both the political and religious arena.

Not Ready Cohorts
 

I throw a beautiful unhittable slider that nips the outside corner and Not Ready knows he doesn't have to even swing at it (and surely miss). Because he knows a bunch of atheists are going to insist on coming in to throw fastballs up the middle, which at the very least he will be able to foul off.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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It's a recipe for disaster in both the political and religious arena.


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I'm not talking about a religion. I'm talking about the Bible. I guess if you can't tell the difference between God's Word and The Little Red Book I can't help you.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

offhand I know the bible says that god is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and that god doesn't lie. But I don't know that the bible says god is omnipotent or infalliable or anything or even that he knows the future, although I guess we can infer he knows the future since he tells his prophets the future, so ok I guess he does know the future or at least some parts of it.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

The Bible is the sacred writings of a religion. It was written by men who claimed it was the word of God. It's no different than The Little Red Book in which the words of Mao were treated as pronouncements from on high. It too was a bible.

You say that the Bible is the word of God. I say hogwash. Same way I say that the men who flew the airplanes on 9/11 were acting on the word of God is hogwash. It's based on mumbo-jumbo and magic and miracles; these things don't exist in the same way poker rushes don't exist. When the Church attempts to prove the miraculous, it embarrasses itself. I've read the Immaculate Heart publications "The Whole Truth About Fatima: Science and the Facts," recommended to me by a believer on this forum. Here's a sample of some of the "facts':

"With a clarity that is altogether divine, the Blessed Virgin Mary there reveals to us in the Secret everything necessary to our souls for their eternal salvation, to our nations for their temporal well-being, and finally everything necessary to the Church for its victory over the powers of hell, which have been unchained."

That's what the Bible is about. The Church's victory.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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That's what the Bible is about


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Not even close.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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That's what the Bible is about. The Church's victory.

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people I respect consider the catholic church to be the, I forget the name, but the evil church, the false church, mentioned in revelation.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

"the Blessed Virgin Mary there reveals to us in the Secret everything necessary to our souls for their eternal salvation, to our nations for their temporal well-being, and finally everything necessary to the Church for its victory over the powers of hell"

Note that Church is capitalized. As is the word Bible. Capitalization for Victory.

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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That's what the Bible is about. The Church's victory.

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people I respect consider the catholic church to be the, I forget the name, but the evil church, the false church, mentioned in revelation.

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The Anti-Christ?

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

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The Anti-Christ?

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no the part about the philadelphians, which are the righteous church(es), and then it talks about 2 or 3 other "bad" churches.

ok quick lookup.

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Revelation 2
To the church in Ephesus
1"To the angel[d] of the church in Ephesus write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands: 2I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
To the Church in Smyrna
8"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.
To the Church in Pergamum
12"To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives. 14Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality. 15Likewise you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.
To the Church in Thyatira
18"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25Only hold on to what you have until I come. 26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'[e]— just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Revelation 3
To the Church in Sardis
1"To the angel[f] of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits[g]of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To the Church in Philadelphia
7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name. 13He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To the Church in Laodicea
14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

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Re: Not Ready Cohorts
 

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I throw a beautiful unhittable slider that nips the outside corner and Not Ready knows he doesn't have to even swing at it (and surely miss). Because he knows a bunch of atheists are going to insist on coming in to throw fastballs up the middle, which at the very least he will be able to foul off.

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I like the anology. NR, answer the OP?

Re: Protestants Opinion Of Mormons Makes My Point Clearest
 

I think you're right. The Bible is the story of Jesus Christ conquering sin so that the human race can attain Heaven.

But I don't understand why you think that claiming power from authority is wrong in itself. It is only wrong if the authority you claim it from is wrong.

It sounds to me you advocate total liberalism in human affairs. But the only advantage of liberalism is freedom to know the truth. If it is the basis of freeing oneself FROM truth, then its crazy.