NL25 - SPR in action?
 

I just finished reading Professional No-Limit Hold Em and I'm trying to slowly work it into my game. I thought this hand was borderline...whaddya think?

NL25 on FT. The player to my left (villain) has been extremely laggy and recently got all-in vs. a smaller stack with 32o on a Q64r flop...he of course caught runner-runner 3s to win it. He has bet every flop when checked to him. The rest of the table has been somewhat aggressive.

I have $14.75 (villain covers) in MP3 and open-raise to .75 with ATs, villain calls, SB calls, BB calls. Pot ~$3.
FLOP: A-8-4 rainbow
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ???

I checked, villain bets $1.50, SB and BB fold, Hero ???

I raised to $4.25, villain calls.

TURN: 2
Hero ??? Pot is ~$11 and I have $9.75 left.

At this point I'm committed (I had decided to go all the way with it once villain bet and the blinds folded)...does it really matter how the rest goes in? Anybody lead the turn for anything less than all-in? FWIW, we did get it all-in on the turn and the river was a Q. Results later.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

Once you are committed, your only concern is how to get him to get it in with you.

It is unlikely that he has many outs with any hand you are ahead of, so it would be OK, for example, to make a weak lead (or check) and hope he senses weakness and pushes over you - if you think he wouldn't call a turn push with a worse hand. The best way to proceed would be very read related and you are better placed to decide than we are.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

I think once you decide to commit, you just push the turn. You've already announced a big hand and the chips are going in, so just get them in there. My concern is with the flop play.

You have an SPR of 4.5- against a loose player that is fine for a top pair kind of hand; however, your top pair isn't that great (because of the kicker) and either he'll need a 2nd best hand to pay you off OR he'll need to try and bluff you off yours. When you c/r, though, you announce you have an ace, so now you really need him to make a 2nd best hand. I assigned him this range, which seems reasonable (perhaps there are some low pocket pairs in there as well, but it seems pretty doubtful even a maniac would want to get it all in here with a PP on an A high flop against a c/r):

Ax, 88, 44, 56, 67.

Assuming he doesn't fold any of these hands, against this range you are only 57%. If he will fold his gutshots to your aggression, then you are breakeven. This just makes your play highly variant, but not really that profitable.

However, if he will bluff a lot at pots, this adds a lot of other hands to his range, so getting it in against that range is clearly profitable. I would take a line of calling his bet, and letting him bluff into you the whole way.

I think this is more of a hand range, equity, maximize problem than an SPR one, fwiw.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

I agree with Jeff. I also would like to note that your target SPR against this guy with this hand HU may be something in the neighborhood of 5 with this hand. However, you do have to adjust it down a bit since this is a multiway pot. However, I think you are fine with it at 4.5 if you are check calling him as he will tend to do what he does best... bet worse hands.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

Thanks.

Jeff, I guess I thought hand range-equity-maximize is what we do everytime, every hand anyways...I was thinking SPR just helps us 'maximize'. It seems in this hand I felt I either had to go all the way or fold the flop, otherwise I put in too much and then fold. Against the blinds I would have been more cautious but vs. the aggrotard I felt I had to go with it. Maybe I was 'reaching' for a spot to tangle with this guy...with him being so aggro and to my left he had pushed me off some other hands that may have been good. He was pushing everybody off hands...basically trying to win almost every pot.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks.

Jeff, I guess I thought hand range-equity-maximize is what we do everytime, every hand anyways...I was thinking SPR just helps us 'maximize'. It seems in this hand I felt I either had to go all the way or fold the flop, otherwise I put in too much and then fold. Against the blinds I would have been more cautious but vs. the aggrotard I felt I had to go with it. Maybe I was 'reaching' for a spot to tangle with this guy... with him being so aggro and to my left he had pushed me off some other hands that may have been good. He was pushing everybody off hands...basically trying to win almost every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leave the table and get position on him. He won't notice. Money flows clockwise around a table.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks.

Jeff, I guess I thought hand range-equity-maximize is what we do everytime, every hand anyways...I was thinking SPR just helps us 'maximize'. It seems in this hand I felt I either had to go all the way or fold the flop, otherwise I put in too much and then fold. Against the blinds I would have been more cautious but vs. the aggrotard I felt I had to go with it. Maybe I was 'reaching' for a spot to tangle with this guy...with him being so aggro and to my left he had pushed me off some other hands that may have been good. He was pushing everybody off hands...basically trying to win almost every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

SPR is a tool for helping you plan your hands. Of course, planning a hand will tend to make you maximize it but it doesn't mean that just because you meet your SPR and you are committed that you should be the one doing the betting.

For example, in your hand you have reached your target SPR. If you use REM you will see that you have good equity against his range and the best way to maximize is to check/call him pretty much the whole way since this way he will bet worse hands that he may normally fold if you were the one doing the betting. This is because of your read on this particular opponent.

Also, you are right that once you call the flop you should be committed to the hand but this doesn't mean that you have to raise.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking SPR just helps us 'maximize'.

[/ QUOTE ]SPR helps us manage our risk vs reward. We are willing to put in 4.5x the pot on this flop because we believe villain will put this much in with a weaker range than our hand (though some of this range likely includes bluffing hands).

If the SPR were 10, there is now twice as much at risk for what we are fighting over, and now villain will tend to have better hands when all the chips get in the middle (because the risk/reward ratio has changed for him as well). Since now we will probably be behind villain's range when all the chips get in, we do not want to commit.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems in this hand I felt I either had to go all the way or fold the flop, otherwise I put in too much and then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree that against this villain you should be willing to commit to going all the way (and SPR tells us that); however, I think our commitment should be conditional to villain betting into us, as that means we gain equity from picking off his bluffs. Villain has a predictable tendency, and that is the only reason we should be willing to commit here. If we didn't know villain had this tendency, our hand is way too marginal to commit with.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

So if I let him do all the betting...do we get all-in? And if we do get all-in...is most of it going in on the river...after I've put a bunch of chips in and several scary cards have come out? I guess the 'let him have the lead throughout the hand' line didn't occur to be that great because I'm oop.

For instance, if I just check/call the flop the pot is just under $6 and I'll have $12.50 left. Then when I check the turn he could see the river for free...just seems like I'm letting him off too easy. Once I decided to go with it I kinda just wanted the money in ASAP.

Thanks for the responses. FWIW, I'm not trying to be defensive or anything like that (not sure how my tone is coming across)...just that I think it's important that I understand some of the finer details of what is being suggested.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then when I check the turn he could see the river for free...just seems like I'm letting him off too easy.

[/ QUOTE ]If he checks behind on the turn, you can value bet the river. Free cards are not going to be too big a deal on this dry flop. And yeah, you don't get his entire stack there, but you are still getting value. Just because you are committed doesn't mean that he is.

FWIW, I probably call the flop and then crai the turn, just because at that point all the chips are committed and he'll stack off there with a baby ace. My main concern is on the flop, where a c/r by you will get rid of most of his bluffing hands, which are the hands that make AT profitable against him in the first place.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then when I check the turn he could see the river for free...just seems like I'm letting him off too easy.

[/ QUOTE ]If he checks behind on the turn, you can value bet the river. Free cards are not going to be too big a deal on this dry flop. And yeah, you don't get his entire stack there, but you are still getting value. Just because you are committed doesn't mean that he is.

FWIW, I probably call the flop and then crai the turn, just because at that point all the chips are committed and he'll stack off there with a baby ace. My main concern is on the flop, where a c/r by you will get rid of most of his bluffing hands, which are the hands that make AT profitable against him in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is fun how many different angles you can look at the same problem. What you are essentially doing is encouraging him to make a bigger mistake than you. You are winning the battle of mistakes and you are adjusting to players. Mmmmmm good poker.

Edit: I add this because sometimes it helps me to turn around and think about the macro while I am thinking about the micro. Metaphorically speaking it is a lot like an artists stepping back and looking at the painting. When you are in a hand sometimes it is easy to get wrapped up and not see the big picture.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

Hi DonkeyChip,

As mentioned by others in the thread, even if you do decide that you are committed, you really want to maximize your "picking off a bluff" equity against this type of player (aggressive, likes to bluff in position) in this type of situation (drawless board, no possible overcards).

It's not a cut and dried thing - you do have several different line options. The main point to take home is that in situations like this, you are trying to maximize based on villain's range and tendencies - in this case that means really trying to let him try and push you off the hand because he's aggressive and air probably makes up a good portion of his range (yes sometimes he'll have a worse or better hand that he's committed to, in which case it makes no difference, but that's why you want to maximize against his whole range). That could mean anything from check-calling all the way, to check-min-raising the flop and then checking the turn to make him think you're getting cute, to check-calling the flop and then donk-leading the turn, to check-calling the flop and turn and then donk-leading the river, etc.

-S

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

Thanks again for the responses.

OK...getting clearer now. Prior to reading the book my line would have been to let him bet the whole way (I might bet the river being oop)...thinking that if he has me beat he's probably getting all of it anyway and if he doesn't...let him bury himself. However, sometimes certain cards could come that might at least make me consider a bad fold. I would rarely if ever 'actively' stack off with AT there.

So taking this line was a bit foreign to me (and apparently...rightly so).

In any case, I bet half my stack on the turn...he shoved and I called. At this point I thought maybe he hit 2-pr or something...but he had A9 and had left the table before the chips were done sliding to my seat.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks again for the responses.

OK...getting clearer now. Prior to reading the book my line would have been to let him bet the whole way (I might bet the river being oop)...thinking that if he has me beat he's probably getting all of it anyway and if he doesn't...let him bury himself. However, sometimes certain cards could come that might at least make me consider a bad fold. I would rarely if ever 'actively' stack off with AT there.

So taking this line was a bit foreign to me (and apparently...rightly so).

In any case, I bet half my stack on the turn...he shoved and I called. At this point I thought maybe he hit 2-pr or something...but he had A9 and had left the table before the chips were done sliding to my seat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome. In this particular hand it looks like you were bound to get his money in as long as you didn't fold. However, do you see how you could make more money against his range with different possible lines? That is the lesson to be learned here.

On a side note does anything feel better than winning a stack because you made a good play? I especially enjoy it when it deals with picking off a bluff. I think it feels way better than doing it by just flopping a monster.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

Awesome thread guys!!!

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

threads,
Yes, I see there were better lines. That's one reason I posted it. It just didn't feel right even though I won the pot (and yes, it was nice to double-through him...especially with a 'just-barely-better' hand. All his stealing...gone in one hand).

The book would still make this hand much easier to play...whichever line I took. Basically because I had decided I was going with it before most of the money went in, based on my SPR and his laggression. Looks like I got a little fps with my new, not yet fully-understood, tools.

Volume II plz. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

Sorry, newb question: what's SPR?

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, newb question: what's SPR?

[/ QUOTE ]


SPR = Stack to Pot Ratio

It is the size of the preflop pot, before any betting is done, divided into the size of the pot.

For example, if there is 100 bucks in the smallest stack and there was 10 bucks in the pot then the SPR is 10.



It is a newbie thing to a lot of us right now as the book has only been available for a few weeks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The book I am referring to is Professional No-Limit Hold 'Em. I would suggest checking it out ASAP.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, newb question: what's SPR?

[/ QUOTE ]


SPR = Stack to Pot Ratio

It is the size of the preflop pot, before any betting is done, divided into the size of the smallest remaining stack .

For example, if there is 100 bucks in the smallest stack and there was 10 bucks in the pot then the SPR is 10.



It is a newbie thing to a lot of us right now as the book has only been available for a few weeks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The book I am referring to is Professional No-Limit Hold 'Em. I would suggest checking it out ASAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

Got it - thanks guys.

You'd think I'd know that, having played with Sunny in a home game before. lol

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, newb question: what's SPR?

[/ QUOTE ]


SPR = Stack to Pot Ratio

It is the size of the preflop pot, before any betting is done, divided into the size of the smallest remaining stack .

For example, if there is 100 bucks in the smallest stack and there was 10 bucks in the pot then the SPR is 10.



It is a newbie thing to a lot of us right now as the book has only been available for a few weeks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The book I am referring to is Professional No-Limit Hold 'Em. I would suggest checking it out ASAP.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops! I reordered my wording and did a poor job. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

Sorry for the bump, but I am in the process of reading the book, and wanted to talk through some things related to SPR.
I think that I have always thought in terms of how much of my stack or how much money I am willing to commit to the pot.

For instance, If I am playing NL25 with a $25 dollar stack and the big blind calls my raise to $1 with a $20 dollar stack behind, then lets say I hit top pair on a dry board. At this point, I am making a decision based on my opponent as to how much I'm putting in on this hand lets say $8 vs. a reasonably tight player and $15 vs. a loosey. If the money gets past that point somehow without me improving, then I am most likely going to fold.

Now with SPR and REM and all that I'm doing basically the same thing, except on the flop I can see that the SPR is actually 10, which is too high for me to commit, so I have an artificial SPR in my mind as to how much I'm committed for... (4 for the tighty and 7.5 for the loosey)
Does this make sense? If this is covered later in the book where I haven't read to yet, I apologize.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the bump, but I am in the process of reading the book, and wanted to talk through some things related to SPR.
I think that I have always thought in terms of how much of my stack or how much money I am willing to commit to the pot.

For instance, If I am playing NL25 with a $25 dollar stack and the big blind calls my raise to $1 with a $20 dollar stack behind, then lets say I hit top pair on a dry board. At this point, I am making a decision based on my opponent as to how much I'm putting in on this hand lets say $8 vs. a reasonably tight player and $15 vs. a loosey. If the money gets past that point somehow without me improving, then I am most likely going to fold.

Now with SPR and REM and all that I'm doing basically the same thing, except on the flop I can see that the SPR is actually 10, which is too high for me to commit, so I have an artificial SPR in my mind as to how much I'm committed for... (4 for the tighty and 7.5 for the loosey)
Does this make sense? If this is covered later in the book where I haven't read to yet, I apologize.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you have already been doing things that are suggested in the book. As you read on it may help you refine your knowledge of commitment and give you some new ways of using it for you and against your opponents.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Awesome thread guys!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Now with SPR and REM and all that I'm doing basically the same thing, except on the flop I can see that the SPR is actually 10, which is too high for me to commit, so I have an artificial SPR in my mind as to how much I'm committed for... (4 for the tighty and 7.5 for the loosey)
Does this make sense? If this is covered later in the book where I haven't read to yet, I apologize.

[/ QUOTE ]


sounds good. we didn't get to how to play these hands in volume 1 other than don't let him get you all-in.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

I think with this aggressive of a player I would rather have relative position to his right rather than absolute position to his left and I think this hand is a perfect example of why. You hit TP with a weak kicker on the flop, the blinds check, you check, let him bet (like he always does) then you get to see whether or not the blinds were slowplaying, if they fold, then you can check-call for his whole stack. As said elsewhere, if you are ahead he is only drawing to 2 - 5 outs so I would not be that concerned about protecting my hand on this type of flop.

Furthermore, by acting before him on each round you can keep checking to represent weakness which is like putting blood in the water for the hyperaggressive player who constantly thinks he can buy people out of pots.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with him being so aggro and to my left he had pushed me off some other hands that may have been good. He was pushing everybody off hands...basically trying to win almost every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leave the table and get position on him. He won't notice. Money flows clockwise around a table.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's as predictably aggro as described, having him directly on our left is good. Being across the table also good. Having him on our immediate right, not as good, as we will frequently be put in the middle.

Re: NL25 - SPR in action?
 

This is a quality post. Thanks everyone who took time to discuss OP's hand.