JTo otb in straddled hand
 

I don't play much live, so limited experience how to adjust play when there is a straddle, never seen one at 2-4 and I was playing 4-8 after winning at 2-4.
Question 1: Generally, do you play your hand as if the pot is raised, or just like it's just double stakes, like a kill pot. Obviously you adjust for the fact there is more likely to be gamboooling than usual.

Live Foxwoods 4-8. BB and UTG both relatively new, but both have straddled the last few orbits, and are raising very light. Prior to this no one had straddled in the few hours I had been playing. UTG straddles, 5 calls, mostly loose passives, but one solid TAG in MP3. I have JTo otb.

Question 2: I call right? If UTG had raised and 5 cold-called I would fold this, but with 6 limpers I would call, I think that's what I have to consider this situation, right?

I call, SB folds, BB 3 bets.

Question 3: In hindsight I should have thought about the fact there was about a 90% chance that was going to happen when determining if I should call. If I had, would it have changed my decison?

UTG straddler caps, all call to me.

Question 4: I have to call getting 8-1 otb in a capped pot, right?

I call, Flop comes 9xx rainbow. BB bets, all call. I have only backdoor straight draw, 1.5 outs, maybe discount to one. But I'm getting ~39-1 so

Question 5: I have to call, right?

Turn brings 9xxQ, 2 diamonds. BB bets, all call, I call getting a million to one with 6 clean str8 outs. River is a Q, there's a bet and 4 callers, one of the loose passives in HJ or MP3 wins with pocket J's.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

Standard

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

Unless you can surely isolate a straddler, leave JTo in the muck. Meaning, UTG straddles, all fold to you on button, you 3 bet or fold it since JTo against 1 random hand is a winner.

Now, if you figure BB is coming also and for more bets, o/s connectors, other than AKo, are in the muck.

Don't take JTo to the flop in wild games.

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Question 2: I call right? If UTG had raised and 5 cold-called I would fold this, but with 6 limpers I would call, I think that's what I have to consider this situation, right?


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No. Even though its a straddle, it IS a raise. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is equivalent to a limp.

b

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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No. Even though its a straddle, it IS a raise. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is equivalent to a limp.

b

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Are you really suggesting that he fold JTo from the button after a straddle and a gaggle of limps?

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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No. Even though its a straddle, it IS a raise. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is equivalent to a limp.

b

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Are you really suggesting that he fold JTo from the button after a straddle and a gaggle of limps?

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i would.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

I'm with chesspain here. With this many callers JTo from late position is a prime play for me. The raise by the BB does not affect things in any way. Hands like JTo you ae looking for volume, hoping to flop a straight or strong draw. JB

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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I'm with chesspain here. With this many callers JTo from late position is a prime play for me. The raise by the BB does not affect things in any way. Hands like JTo you ae looking for volume, hoping to flop a straight or strong draw. JB

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the problem with this is you dont flop an OESD all that often and your pair cards are very weak and wont hold up against many opponents in a multiway pot. in addition, playing for only a straight is problematic as it can lead to you chopping the pot quite often even if you do hit.

JTs on the other hand, adds considerably to your winning chances and is an easy call in this spot.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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No. Even though its a straddle, it IS a raise. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is equivalent to a limp.

b

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Are you really suggesting that he fold JTo from the button after a straddle and a gaggle of limps?

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You mean a gaggle of coldcalls.

I would.

b

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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The raise by the BB does not affect things in any way. Hands like JTo you ae looking for volume,

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Really? Not in any way? It seems to affect the value of implied odds postflop a bit. JTo is a hand you want to see the flop cheaply with. It's not a great multiway hand and thrives on implied odds if you can get in cheap. Unless you think a betting structure of 1-1-2-2 is the same as 2-1-2-2.

I guess with volume you're suggesting playing JTo in capped 7 way pots also?

You don't play a hand using hoping to flop a str8 as a reasonable reason to play it. That's hoping for a miracle.

b

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

A big part of the problem is that it's not just 2 bets, you still have 2 players in the binds and a GAMB00L straddler who collectivly have a high chance of making this 3 bets. Once it goes 3, someone will put in that last bet because big pots are fun!

Yes, we'll play JTo here when it's a single bet and not feel too bad about the risk of it going 2 bets or having to fold for 2+ bets if we think QQ+ is out there.

However, 7, 8 or even 9 way are we cool with JTo OTB in a capped pot against retarded opponents?

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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No. Even though its a straddle, it IS a raise. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is equivalent to a limp.

b

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Are you really suggesting that he fold JTo from the button after a straddle and a gaggle of limps?

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You mean a gaggle of coldcalls.

I would.

b

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I guess we disagree on the importance of the fact the everyone is putting in two bets ahead of us. If it is the kind of table where people are regularly limping with crap, then I automatically overlimp on the Button with JTo for one bet (and I assume you would also).

Consequently, although I agree that putting in two bets vs. one cuts into our implied odds somewhat, if I can't assume that everyones' hands are better than usual just because they are calling a straddle, then I would probably play this hand on the Button for two.

Of course, the fact that the OP specifically mentioned that the straddlers had been raising light would probably cause me to intially dump this hand. Otherwise, however, I have no problem playing this for two bets.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

I would consider a straddle with no callers to be an iso situation vs a maniac. So I would reraise with a range of like 66+, A9+, KTs+, KJ+, or maybe looser. With several callers we are talking about a multiway pot and JT is standard for this. Nice hand.

Buzz

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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I guess we disagree on the importance of the fact the everyone is putting in two bets ahead of us.

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Then would you put in 4 bets with JTo against this same group postflop if you knew they were playing crap also? How about if all these players were playing blind all the way to the river?

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If it is the kind of table where people are regularly limping with crap, then I automatically overlimp on the Button with JTo for one bet (and I assume you would also).

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Yes. But this is a different situation. You're getting in cheaper and your implieds are much better.

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if I can't assume that everyones' hands are better than usual just because they are calling a straddle, then I would probably play this hand on the Button for two.

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Again, what if you can assume this going into capped pots?

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the fact that the OP specifically mentioned that the straddlers had been raising light would probably cause me to intially dump this hand. Otherwise, however, I have no problem playing this for two bets.

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So if they were raising tight you'd be more likely to see the flop with JTo?

b

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

This is far from a fold in this game. Easy call.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

With the straddle on, it's not really calling two bets, it has effectively made the betting just double for this first call. I'd say it IS more like limping along especially since the straddle isn't a raise, it's just a stakes increase.

In fact a raise from the BB only adds 1/2 a small bet if you think about it in relative terms.

On implied odds, live games are far less susceptible to the "reducing your implied odds" theory. Idiots call nearly as much in a raised pot than they do in an unraised one.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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it's just a stakes increase.

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...except that the post-flop betting amounts don't increase.

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On implied odds, live games are far less susceptible to the "reducing your implied odds" theory. Idiots call nearly as much in a raised pot than they do in an unraised one.

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It takes away your ability to make any sort of fold. You're committed to drawing to pretty much anything and showing down a wide range as well. How exactly are you outplaying anyone with those constraints?

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

JTo is an above average hand. Calling a straddle is not the same as calling a raise. You have position. I would call. On the other hand, if BB looked like he was going to raise, and the player who straddled had been 3-betting/capping with all kinds of stuff, I would probably fold. I definitely don't want to play this hand for $16 if I can help it.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

I see your point about the implied odds and honestly I missed the part of the post where he indicates that the straddler caps. However, I still call. My experience is that players will raise a little looser in hands like this 'to build a pot.' I still call. 8-1 odds are enough in my book to play a hand like this especially if I feel I can outplay most my opponents after the flop. JB

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

Running this in Pokerstove against 7 & 8 top 75% hands, we actually have a slight equity edge.

So it comes down to:
o How bad are the reverse implied odds of playing this out?
o How much is the button worth for min/maxing?
o Are terrible opponents making enough terrible mistakes in a pot so big that their loose behavior isn't punished?

I'm inclined to say that at worst this spot is GAMB00L yet there might be an edge here. That said, it's well known how to destroy these games for a sick win-rate and you don't have to play this hand to do that.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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Calling a straddle is not the same as calling a raise.

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Odds-wise, it is.

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JTo is an above average hand.

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It's also not a hand I'm taking to the flop in a wild game.

b

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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it's just a stakes increase.

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...except that the post-flop betting amounts don't increase.



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Key point.

b

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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Calling a straddle is not the same as calling a raise.

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Odds-wise, it is.

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That may be, but my point was that it's different from calling a raise. While you may have a harder time recouping your initial investment on the later streets due to worse odds, you are less likely to be a big dog on your initial investment.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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Calling a straddle is not the same as calling a raise.

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Odds-wise, it is.

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That may be, but my point was that it's different from calling a raise. While you may have a harder time recouping your initial investment on the later streets due to worse odds, you are less likely to be a big dog on your initial investment.

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Your odds still suck. They just suck a little less. Still not worth going into the flop with. Way too much value being given to JTo here. At best, I'd give it about break even. I think even that's a kind estimate.

Or you would go into a capped pot with a bunch of loose guys who'd play just about anything with JTo? Say, capped by UTG+2(could even say all 3 raises were blind raises) and 3 cold callers to you.(That's a 6 way pot so far if blinds don't come along)

And if you are going to come in with that, how low will you go here? 98o?

JTo is a garbage hand to pay 2 bets with preflop multiway regardless of how it got to 2 bets.

b

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

Alright let's talk ranges!

Easy 3-Bet: AKo, ATs+, KQs, TT+
Don't hate a call: AQ, 88+, KJs, QJs
Call: AJo, KQo, J9s, T9s, all other suited broadways, suited Aces and pairs

~15% of hands.

GAMB00L: Small suited connectors, offsuit broadways, J8s, Q9s, etc.

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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Your odds still suck. They just suck a little less. Still not worth going into the flop with. Way too much value being given to JTo here. At best, I'd give it about break even. I think even that's a kind estimate.

JTo is a garbage hand to pay 2 bets with preflop multiway regardless of how it got to 2 bets.

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Well said. I've gotta wonder - all those people who are playing JTo against a straddle, with a probable raiser or two still to speak ... what are you folding here? I would be willing to bet that a trash hand like 53s, in this spot, has more equity than JTo ... and while I wouldn't play either for 2 bets, if forced to choose I'm taking the former every single time.

I honestly can't think of a spot outside the blinds where I'd play an offsuit connector lower than KQo for more than one bet in a low-limit game, ever.

Mook

Re: JTo otb in straddled hand
 

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I honestly can't think of a spot outside the blinds where I'd play an offsuit connector lower than KQo for more than one bet in a low-limit game, ever.

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Good point.

I tried to think of a spot myself. I couldn't come up with one.

b