Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

I don't know what to make of this; who was more of an idiot, me or him? BB appears solid tight-aggressive, a bit weak at times, button is a pretty typical fish, loose-passive-ish.

Preflop (6 handed): Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (19.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 26.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Qc Qh (one pair, queens).
Button has 9d 9s (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins 26.75 BB. </font>

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

Jeez.

I think you played reasonably through most of the hand. I might have just called the 3-bet on the flop planning on raising a non-heart turn, but capping is fine. It really looks like you're beat on the river, but you only need to take the chips home around 5% or so of the time to call.

BB is an idiot.
Button is even worse.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

I think you played it well and your fold seems fine considering how it went down.

I don't know what the button was thinking. I think he was awake until the river and then passed out on the raise button.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

How did BB win if you have 2 pair. I think its obvious he has a big pair here (unlikely AK based on post flop play). I have no idea what button is doing.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
How did BB win if you have 2 pair. I think its obvious he has a big pair here (unlikely AK based on post flop play). I have no idea what button is doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

River: (19.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB 3-bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

Grunchage

BB's hand is playing ike a big pair obviously. BTn? who the heck knows. He could have 22 but doubt that that really. Could he have played 89 the whole way like this? I think you have the BB beat for sure here but BTN I'm not sure what he could have. Wakes up on the river when a 2 hits? Tough call here for you cause it looks like you'll be having to possibly put in 3 more BBs to stay in. BTN either has set of something or not much of a hand at all IMO.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

BB is either

1) on tilt
2) one of those new breed of fish who thinks that poker is about waiting for AA preflop and then raise/capping it on all streets on a board of 3456K.
3) a maniac

Button is just retarded.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How did BB win if you have 2 pair. I think its obvious he has a big pair here (unlikely AK based on post flop play). I have no idea what button is doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

River: (19.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB 3-bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

DOH - im retarded. Unlikely that Button has a set. Why wouldne he raise turn with obviously lots of action there? Waiting until the river doesnt make sense to me. If i am button with 44, I rasie turn, maybe even flop if I think either player has 89/KQ.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]

DOH - im retarded. Unlikely that Button has a set. Why wouldne he raise turn with obviously lots of action there? Waiting until the river doesnt make sense to me. If i am button with 44, I rasie turn, maybe even flop if I think either player has 89/KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because he wants to slowplay it, let us do the betting for him and avoid knocking out BB by re-raising me. That's how they often think. I see it all the time.

BB said he made the river raise to make me fold AA/KK... I'm not so sure about that. It looks a lot like he was just tilting/spewing and got lucky. Maybe he had a longer history with the Button, and had seen him do this before.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

I'm still [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] about button's river raise. How in the hell did he think 9-9 was good against two players both of whom have shown uber-aggression the whole way?

Button will take this pot away from both of you on the river as played approximately never.

Kit speaks the absolute truth about the BB. His play was nowhere near as crafty as he was describing. Sounds like afterwards-justification for trying to spew and catching a lucky break.

I know it's used a lot on here, but I want to be in games with the button if he's going to play like that.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

All 3 of you are idiots:

Button is an idiot for continuing with 9-9 when there are two overcards on board, plus Hero and BB are betting like crazy, representing an overpair, if not a set.

BB is an idiot for not fearing AA, KK, JJ, or TT enough to slow down with his QQ.

You're an idiot for folding top two pair in this situation. What hand are you afraid of? No flush possibility, 8-9 is unlikely, though possible. Only thing you have to fear with top two pair is a set... which given the betting and the cards you hold, isn't likely. If one of your opponents has the case TT or JJ, more power to them and congrats on the pot. Otherwise, at least call Button's raise and BB's 3-bet on the river... pot is way to big to just fold it for 2 more bets.

Larry, Curly and Moe... all at the same table!

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

what limit is this?

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
what limit is this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent question JD... didn't even consider that. $3/$6 is a lot different than $6/$12 and could impact the answer...

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

have not looked at the results...but i would think i would have folded to the 3 bet on the turn

made straight or set of 4's or another JT pairing...

(now looking at the results)--what the hell were they thinkin? did you do anything to them to make them go off like that, like put something in their drinks? wow, just wow

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

Well, it looks like your read on button was wrong. Maybe BB had a better read and knew he liked to make hopeless plays like this?

I don't like BB's turn 3-bet. He has to know when you raise the turn that he is likely behind, most likely to JJ/TT/JT.

When you don't cap the turn, he should still know he is behind, but that you probably don't have TT or JJ.

So if he knows -

1) button is capable of this move,
2) it likely is a move given the board and action, and
3) you can fold a better hand -

then it's a good play. Recognize that BB just calling here would be really terrible, and it's hard for him to fold, so investing an extra BB in this huge pot even on a longshot isn't that bad.

That being said, this is giving him a lot of credit. Making this play would place him among the better limit holdem players in the world, and I doubt that guy is sitting at small stakes Stars games.

So in the end it's more likely he was just spewing and got lucky.

As for your river fold, it's a tough, tough spot. Given no flush or straight, and that sets are unlikely, and that the pot is huge, you should probably call. But I'm likely biased by knowing the results.

Just curious, who was BB? Who was button? I am interested if I recognize them and if my read on them is the same as yours.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

Seeing results:

ZOMG, you're getting 13:1 to call in a huge pot. How can you fold this?



Not seeing results:

I think that you played the hand well. I like the turn raise because it is pretty hard to put BB on a set even though hands such as AJ or AT are possibilities too. You correctly put him on an overpair and the raise has value as well as it is protecting your hand. I would have called the 2 on the river if I was last to act but I am not sure if I would when facing a possible cap from the now aggressive button, especially when considering your reads.

BB is clearly over-playing his hand.

BTN should have 3-bet pf. As he played, he should have folded the flop as well as the turn.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

cap the turn, as there are only 2 possible combos of hands that beat you that make any sense. button looks like a [censored] with 98, so folding the river seems fine, but i don't think you are ever beat by the pfr.

EDIT: just read the results. BB is a retard, but has exactly what we think he has. button should be in a padded room.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
River: (19.75 BB) 2 (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB 3-bets, Hero folds, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF Mate?

What hand exactly are you folding to? There's no potential flush. Straight(89) is very remote for the BB to have. You have top 2 pair, making JJ and TT unlikely. BB is not going to 3-Bet with 44. He's screaming out "HIGH POCKET PAIR!!". Only 3 hands that have you beat are JJ, TT or 98 are all very unlikely given your holdings and the preflop action. I think you're making a huge mistake to fold here on the river when you can't even put BB on a winning hand. Only player you have to fear is Button holding a low set, but as you said he's a fish.

I think you have to make a crying call here and hope nobody's got a set. Final pot was ~27 BB's =&gt; 13.5:1 pot odds =&gt; you have to show down the winner only 7.5% of the time to make this call correct. Just think...if you make 2BB/hr, you just wiped out 13.5 hours of profit in this one hand.

You're going to lose a lot of money anytime you hit top two-pair against a set with no flushes on board. That's just the way it goes. You cannot assume the worst and even if you do think you're beaten, folding a winner in such an enormous pot is a much bigger mistake than calling down.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

It's slightly different. Button is likely to cap it, so I have to put in 3 more bets for a final pot of 28.75 bets; that's 9.6:1, which means I have to be good 9.5% of the time. Even though the button is a fish, he is raising the field after this action and surely must know one of us is calling him down. So he must have a hand, unless he is completely, utterly retarded. I read BB as a reasonable player, and he must also know this; furthermore, he must realize that I have at least a pair of kings, yet he doesn't seem to care: he still 3 bets. I just didn't think that almost 10% of the time I would be up against two loons. One of whom, as poker bob so nicely said, should probably be in a padded cell [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
You cannot assume the worst and even if you do think you're beaten, folding a winner in such an enormous pot is a much bigger mistake than calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. In Small Stakes Hold'em they say one of the biggest mistakes (other than playing weak off-suit hands in EP) is folding when the pot large. "By calling you might loose a bet but by folding you loose (forfeit) the entire pot." I understand that if you had called after the reraise it might have been capped and you would have called 3 extra bets but I think the principal of this saying still applies.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

I think this hand is a prime example of why having a lock on the play style of your opponents is so important. The villians in this hand are almost certainly playing their unique brands of dumb consistently. Once you note that it makes the decision to toss or call here much easier.

Against unknowns, I tend to revert to calling down when something doesn't make any sense, generally it means they've made a mistake.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cannot assume the worst and even if you do think you're beaten, folding a winner in such an enormous pot is a much bigger mistake than calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. In Small Stakes Hold'em they say one of the biggest mistakes (other than playing weak off-suit hands in EP) is folding when the pot large. "By calling you might loose a bet but by folding you loose (forfeit) the entire pot." I understand that if you had called after the reraise it might have been capped and you would have called 3 extra bets but I think the principal of this saying still applies.

[/ QUOTE ]The fact that you are calling two bets--and likely three--makes all the difference in the world, and negates the quoted passage.

No offense, but I think if OP hadn't posted the results he'd be hearing very few arguments to call the river.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

i just read this for the first time and haven't seen results yet

cap the turn

and don't fold the river even though it's kind of gross

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

There are no hard rules that will help here, in either direction. The only question that matters is "Am I good enough of the time to make up the cost of calling those times I'm beat".

The chance of your hand being best a large enough percentage of the time to justify the call is affected, obviously, by how many bets you need to call, but it is also affected by your opponent's skill level and playing style. You cannot make the right decision if you don't consider all factors.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

i would cap the turn.

as played, you should be raising the river. since you didn't, you sort of opened yourself up to being outplayed.

sure, it is often a muck if your read on the button is accurate. in fact, the play on the end is entirely dependent on the button because we have the BB beat here pretty much all of the time. in addition, given this is 6max and people are prone to spastic fits of retardation at these levels(missed draws, worse two pair, overpair etc.) you need to look at the overlay you are getting to make the call, sack up and put the money in.

what level of tilt did this fold induce? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cannot assume the worst and even if you do think you're beaten, folding a winner in such an enormous pot is a much bigger mistake than calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more. In Small Stakes Hold'em they say one of the biggest mistakes (other than playing weak off-suit hands in EP) is folding when the pot large. "By calling you might loose a bet but by folding you loose (forfeit) the entire pot." I understand that if you had called after the reraise it might have been capped and you would have called 3 extra bets but I think the principal of this saying still applies.

[/ QUOTE ]The fact that you are calling two bets--and likely three--makes all the difference in the world, and negates the quoted passage.

No offense, but I think if OP hadn't posted the results he'd be hearing very few arguments to call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, another excuse for me to post this!

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give a quick river tip that will hopefully help some people. Bets mean something, but raises mean a whole lot more. They mean more still if you've called in between. For instance, just last night I folded K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] board for a single bet, closing the action in a 23BB pot...

--Ed Miller

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

Im wondering why you didnt play the turn harder from the middle.

Ps I hate your river fold.

so, how did you do ?

<font color="white"> Ouch MUBsie. </font>

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

possible collusion between BB and Button.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would cap the turn.

as played, you should be raising the river. since you didn't, you sort of opened yourself up to being outplayed.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I wasn't too thrilled about my play. I'm new to 6max also; not used to these weird plays. In FR his turn 3-bet is almost always JJ.
[ QUOTE ]

what level of tilt did this fold induce? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I sat out and timed out on the other 7 tables. I'm not sure I really tilted, can't remember. I think I just quit the session.

---
[ QUOTE ]
possible collusion between BB and Button.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's funny you say that because that's exactly what my first thought was. I remember saying to myself "Woh guys, are we teaming?"

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Hey, another excuse for me to post this!

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give a quick river tip that will hopefully help some people. Bets mean something, but raises mean a whole lot more. They mean more still if you've called in between. For instance, just last night I folded K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] board for a single bet, closing the action in a 23BB pot...

--Ed Miller

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I have that post saved. While I don't like my play for not capping the turn, I do still think this river is a fold. If I hadn't shown weakness I'd never have been in that spot.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

well played. get rid off your pain. this time you lost 20 bets. the next 100 times you save 2 bets each!

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

How could you possibly fold for one bet on the end in this huge pot with 2pr and at least one player trapped? Catastrophic.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
How could you possibly fold for one bet on the end in this huge pot with 2pr and at least one player trapped? Catastrophic.

[/ QUOTE ]
Step 1: read properly [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (9.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (19.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 26.75 BB

BB has Qc Qh (one pair, queens).
Button has 9d 9s (one pair, nines).
Outcome: BB wins 26.75 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Collusion, obv.

Re: Rate my and villain\'s play...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Collusion, obv.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they're that stupid, I don't think I mind. Why would you play together and both go to showdown with the same hand. Why pay twice as much? That'd be quite stupid.