BB defend NLCASH
 

Ok i saw cwar actually folding A7o in the BB in his hu video vs a 3xbb raise.

Obviously hes a great player so i think might underestimate the reverse implied odds concept.

But heres my thought about BB defend..

Lets say you call with A7o, KTo 22-55 etc. 15%
and reraise with AT+, 66+ and sometimes other stuff to 10%

So you are acutally folding 75% of the time!

My point here is that i get far too much value in the small Blind by simply raising any 2 cards.

lets say i get 72o in the sb, hows my value of raising:

75% of the time i gain 1bb so thats +0.75bb value
10% of the time i loose 3bb so thats -0.3bb value
15% of the time i see a flop with as a hopeless underdog, but in position, but i still have at least 33% equity of the 6bb pot = 2bb = loss of 1bb = -0.15bb value.

So thats 0.3 bb raising value of 72o instead of loosing the 0.5 bb by folding of course!

In a perfect world i would imagine raising 72o isnt profitable, with that underdefend its superprofitable.

Vs an Opponent that limps the button quite a bit an seldom raises it i think its ok to fold A7.
But an Opponent that comes in for a 3xbb raise as Standard and raises about 50% of his cards lets say, you got with A2o 50% equity of the pot.
Folding looses 1bb.

So heres my question is the reverse implied odds really making up that much? I cant really imagine that.

Re: BB defend
 

Because this is NLHE it is much too complex an problem to solve the way you are trying.

Re: BB defend
 

But you have to admit that if you defend that tight i can raise 72o and just wait for a fullhouse on the flop an would make a profit.

But i know what you mean, thats why im asking. Dont take it as an insult of your play, im just trying to understand or quantify the reverse implied concept.
I mean most of the good players fold low Aces there, not just you. Brian Townsend is an example.

Im just trying to understand.. i mean i know the reasoning behind it i think, just cant quantify it.

Do you play Cashgames too? Could you post how much you lost on the bb and how much won in sb?
Also really longterm stats (like 500k hands or something) of the low aces in the bb would be very interesting.

Re: BB defend
 

cwar,

What tag does this post need? I haven't seen the video.

op,

Please read the sticky

Re: BB defend
 

I think it applies both to NLTRN and NLCash, although the video was a sit-n-go. Whatever tag you feel is appropriate for that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: BB defend
 

Im sorry, didnt read it [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

The Tag would be NLCASH, dont know how to edit.
(The Video was NLTRN though)

My Point of view is more suitable to Sngs, because you dont have bigstacks and equity plays more of a role.

I also have no real idea how exactly the handranges should change when playing like 400bb deep etc.

Re: BB defend
 

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Because this is NLHE it is much too complex an problem to solve the way you are trying.

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No, it's not. You can say "I adjust and if he raises every hand I do this in response", but OP's math is solid -- if you're only defending 25% of your BBs, opening w/any 2 is +EV.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because this is NLHE it is much too complex an problem to solve the way you are trying.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not. You can say "I adjust and if he raises every hand I do this in response", but OP's math is solid -- if you're only defending 25% of your BBs, opening w/any 2 is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its +EV preflop doesnt mean its +EV in whole.

Re: BB defend
 

You def. don't want to be playing too many mediocre hands out of the BB, it's way too easy for an opponent to take it away from you post flop, if they ARE raising 75% of their hands, can't you just widen up your 3bet range and make this super-profitable against them... ? I mean you have to adapt, but you don't want to adapt by just weak-calling, IMO it would be much better to widen your raising range, but as for the math you can't calculate a problem out like this, because jut because you have pre-flop equity vs his range doesn't mean it's going to be +EV to call, there are alot more elements to take into account

Re: BB defend
 

Yea obviously Primordial is correct, while I may only call around 25% of my hands OOP but I play way more than that, also FYI the video was of a $33 where you will rarely ever have to worry about someone raising 100% OTB higher stakes you may see me open my calling range more depending on the villain.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im sorry, didnt read it [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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No big deal [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
The Tag would be NLCASH, dont know how to edit.
(The Video was NLTRN though)

[/ QUOTE ]

As you wish.

PS Non-mods can only edit for 15 mins after they post.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because this is NLHE it is much too complex an problem to solve the way you are trying.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not. You can say "I adjust and if he raises every hand I do this in response", but OP's math is solid -- if you're only defending 25% of your BBs, opening w/any 2 is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its +EV preflop doesnt mean its +EV in whole.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what part of his math is wrong? Here it is again:



75% of the time i gain 1bb so thats +0.75bb value
10% of the time i loose 3bb so thats -0.3bb value
15% of the time i see a flop with as a hopeless underdog, but in position, but i still have at least 33% equity of the 6bb pot = 2bb = loss of 1bb = -0.15bb value.



Obviously the part you can easily argue about is the postflop result if you choose to take a flop, but note that even if villain automucks if you call preflop, he's still 0 EV overall (.75*1 = .25*3), which is significantly better than folding his SB (-.5 EV).

We can improve on the automuck strategy pretty easily (for instance, playing on if we flop two pair or better), so obviously his hand has to have SOME value postflop, which means overall the play has to be +EV.

Re: BB defend
 

What play? Calling wide or raising any two? I dont think anyone is going to argue with you that raising a lot on the button is wrong or is that not what you are getting at?

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
What play? Calling wide or raising any two? I dont think anyone is going to argue with you that raising a lot on the button is wrong or is that not what you are getting at?

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP said that, if you are only defending 25% of your blinds, then raising 72o against you is +EV. You seemed to disagree with him. Do you disagree? If so, why?

Re: BB defend
 

In the big blind, out of position, you want to lose less than your opponent does in the same position. This is why defending with "only" 25% of hands may be ok, depending on the postflop skills of you and your opponent. If someone is opening 100% of their hands on the button, it is difficult (IMO) to exploit this pf without getting into very tricky positions postflop OOP. This is why an aggressive player who plays well postflop (especially from the button) is a very tough opponent.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the big blind, out of position, you want to lose less than your opponent does in the same position. This is why defending with "only" 25% of hands may be ok, depending on the postflop skills of you and your opponent. If someone is opening 100% of their hands on the button, it is difficult (IMO) to exploit this pf without getting into very tricky positions postflop OOP. This is why an aggressive player who plays well postflop (especially from the button) is a very tough opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone raising 100% can certainly be exploited in a SNG or in a low-stacks situation. You can just pushbot him. If SB's auto-making it 3 BBs, pushbotting will be +EV for the BB to about 25 BBs effective stack assuming perfect play for opponent. If SB's autominraising, it's not so favorable for BB -- only +EV to a stack size of about 14-15 I think. But since opponent's not perfect, you can probably squeak out some +EV up til the 30-40 BB range in the first example and up to 20 in the 2nd.

Agreed that in a deepstack/cash game it's a little more challenging.

Re: BB defend
 

What really kills someone opening to loose is 3betting him loose yes.

If you reraise him 30% of the time and call 15% we get to a point where i cant open that loose.
This will get more value for my premium holdings of course though.

But i agree, if you adjust its certainly not profitable to open any2. I just think that an opening range of 70% or so is already loose enough to adjust and defend with A2.

You cerainly shouldnt expect a 33 sng player to open that loose of course, so i guess the A7 fold was good. It was just an example, brian townsend throws it away too and people there are opening really loose by default i would say.

I also think that it really doesnt play that much of a role now. You dont get into that situation that often, maybe like 5 times per 100 hands. If you loose 0.1bb or win 0.1bb , it doesnt make that much of an impact.

Yesterday i played someone with a 9% roi over 3000 games in the 500s hu sngs and he was defending with A2 and much worse (i wastn openign 100%)
So you certainly can win very big with it (and without defending too) And you will get into alot of trouble postflop of course for a hand which probably is break even or something.

Re: BB defend
 

"But i agree, if you adjust its certainly not profitable to open any2"

i actually think this depends on how deep you are and how he adjusts.

Re: BB defend
 

a good opponent isn't going to 3x it 50/100 or even 25/50... that would make them... well not good...

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
a good opponent isn't going to 3x it 50/100 or even 25/50... that would make them... well not good...

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I play cash HU. My understanding of HU SNGs is mostly just theoretical.

Re: BB defend
 

I have no idea what this discussion is about anymore.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what this discussion is about anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Going back to OP: why do you fold your BB so much in your HU video, since you're making it correct for your opponent to open with 72o.

Re: BB defend
 

lol... it is NOT correct for his opp to raise 72o... your making foolish math seem like a reality, if he widens his 3bet range even just slightly, and keeps his std. OTB range, he will be dominating any opp who is opening w/ 72o, even w/only mediocre post flop play, nobody can mindlessly open top 75 and be very profitable against a solid player, if your widening ranges you should NOT be making your CALLING RANGE OOP too wide, this is awful, and will allow your opponent to exploit a ton of additional chips from you you don't need to let go...

Re: BB defend
 

miss lippie's car is green.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol... it is NOT correct for his opp to raise 72o... your making foolish math seem like a reality, if he widens his 3bet range even just slightly, and keeps his std. OTB range, he will be dominating any opp who is opening w/ 72o, even w/only mediocre post flop play, nobody can mindlessly open top 75 and be very profitable against a solid player, if your widening ranges you should NOT be making your CALLING RANGE OOP too wide, this is awful, and will allow your opponent to exploit a ton of additional chips from you you don't need to let go...

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to play more than 25% of hands to beat mr. 72 raiser. Whether you reraise 25% and call 0% or reraise 10% and call 15%, as long as you are only playing 25% of your hands it's correct for him to raise 72o to 3 BBs.

Re: BB defend
 

PREFLOP it may be correct, but when you DO call or reraise you'll a) be getting alot more credit (typically), making it VERY easy to play alot of flops, good or bad for your hand. The goal isn't to take away all his equity pre-flop, I mean 3betting all 25% or not isn't going to build pots against too many weaker hands, however post flop is where the big pots will get built, and he is going to be playing ALOT of hands with very poor reverse implied odds and also find himself in many tricky situations with weak kickers, middle pairs, etc., if he is raising almost ATC then widening your calling range should NOT be your best solution, you need to build pots with solid hands, and exploit his aggressiveness, as most ATC raisers will be c-betting very frequently, as the blinds increase this will become increasingly expensive for them, as will just 3x'n pots preflop as the blinds escalate, but widening your PF calling range is not going to exploit his tendencies too much when your OOP it's hard to do this vs. a decent player, you need to look at maximum EV decisions, not just +EV, I mean we can argue all day by you saying "But it'll be GOOD FOR HIM Pre-Flop!!!" , however , again, you can adapt to him but it shouldn't be by calling more OOP, play a solid game til 25/50 or 50/100 and then make your 3bet range and calling range wider than 25%, then all of a sudden in a few hands you can be up a huge amount of chips... I dunno, im being dragged away from the comp by my g/f, but let's get more discussion this, I am saying it is not the correct way to adapt to most ATC raisers like that

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
PREFLOP it may be correct, but when you DO call or reraise you'll a) be getting alot more credit (typically), making it VERY easy to play alot of flops, good or bad for your hand. The goal isn't to take away all his equity pre-flop, I mean 3betting all 25% or not isn't going to build pots against too many weaker hands, however post flop is where the big pots will get built, and he is going to be playing ALOT of hands with very poor reverse implied odds and also find himself in many tricky situations with weak kickers, middle pairs, etc., if he is raising almost ATC then widening your calling range should NOT be your best solution, you need to build pots with solid hands, and exploit his aggressiveness, as most ATC raisers will be c-betting very frequently, as the blinds increase this will become increasingly expensive for them, as will just 3x'n pots preflop as the blinds escalate, but widening your PF calling range is not going to exploit his tendencies too much when your OOP it's hard to do this vs. a decent player, you need to look at maximum EV decisions, not just +EV, I mean we can argue all day by you saying "But it'll be GOOD FOR HIM Pre-Flop!!!" , however , again, you can adapt to him but it shouldn't be by calling more OOP, play a solid game til 25/50 or 50/100 and then make your 3bet range and calling range wider than 25%, then all of a sudden in a few hands you can be up a huge amount of chips... I dunno, im being dragged away from the comp by my g/f, but let's get more discussion this, I am saying it is not the correct way to adapt to most ATC raisers like that

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, I'm viewing it from a cash perspective where the blinds never increase and chipping away at someone 100% riskfree because they fold too much is a valid strategy.

I agree that villain can get trapped into playing some marginal hands OOP, but *even if he mucks as soon as you make the call preflop* he makes money; any actual EV from the postflop pot is just gravy.

Re: BB defend
 

I think creed is also saying a smart player raising ATC against that raising range.

A defense of a question is not "well he'll suck at another part of the game so it doesn't matter."

Re: BB defend
 

I personally wouldnt cbet almost at all vs someone whos calling range is so strong. Take a freecard and gain even more equity. I would bet my good hands and make some bluffbets of course.

You need acutally to raise more than 25%, because if i fold in the sb i lost 0.5bb. You would need to raise almost 40% if your raise all hands you play.
Even then im making a breakeven raise with 72o, but gaining a lot of value for my stronger hands.

Im not defending that much, nobodys opening 72o [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
But i think opening very wide from the sb is good vs most opponents as long as they keep folding alot.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think creed is also saying a smart player raising ATC against that raising range.

A defense of a question is not "well he'll suck at another part of the game so it doesn't matter."

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't done the math; it's interesting.

Most opponents in cash games defend 50%+, so it's not a factor. My "default defense mode" in the 30s, however, so it's rather disturbing to me that I might be giving up autoprofit to smart opponents. Have to think about that.

Re: BB defend
 

I said it before and Ill say it again, just because it is profitable for villain to raise ATC preflop doesnt mean it is profitable on a whole.

Re: BB defend
 

I think it is important to remember that just because a sb play is +ev doesn't necessarily mean that the bb is making a mistake.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is important to remember that just because a sb play is +ev doesn't necessarily mean that the bb is making a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, very important distinction.

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it is important to remember that just because a sb play is +ev doesn't necessarily mean that the bb is making a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you Kidling that plays PS HUSNGs?

Re: BB defend
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it is important to remember that just because a sb play is +ev doesn't necessarily mean that the bb is making a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you Kidling that plays PS HUSNGs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah

Re: BB defend
 

At the beginning there are 1,5 bb in the pot and both are dealt 2 random cards. So without the position factor everybody has an equity of 50% of that 1,5bb = 0.75bb.
But bb has 1bb in there, so he should loose 0.25b while sb should win 0.25.
And that is even without factoring position in.

Most BB plays might be -ev and correct for that reason.

Also somebody in this forum posted a winrate over 75k hands from the bb and he is defending only about 25% or so.

So it seems that the preflop edge doesnt mean alot for your winrate. It all comes down how well you play postflop.