finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

assuming that most sites random generators are semi flawed (which I believe they are), i wonder if a tracker could datamine 500k spins and find whether certain #s are giving different values then others in the long run..i would gamble that this is very possible, feel free to shoot me down if you think im out of my mind..

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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assuming that most sites random generators are semi flawed (which I believe they are), i wonder if a tracker could datamine 500k spins and find whether certain #s are giving different values then others in the long run..i would gamble that this is very possible, feel free to shoot me down if you think im out of my mind..

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well lets say their number generators are flawed and aliens exist. and so on.

do you think this will make up for the 4.5% house edge? i dont think this is possible.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

The RNG's used by online casinos, from my experience, use physical properties to generate random numbers. They're not like the pseudo RNG's in your PC -- they do not use seeds or data tables, so do not follow any predictable repeating patterns.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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assuming that most sites random generators are semi flawed (which I believe they are), i wonder if a tracker could datamine 500k spins and find whether certain #s are giving different values then others in the long run..i would gamble that this is very possible, feel free to shoot me down if you think im out of my mind..

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well lets say their number generators are flawed and aliens exist. and so on.

do you think this will make up for the 4.5% house edge? i dont think this is possible.

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There wouldn't be a house edge if he could find a number that came up more than random probability dictates.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

well since you can't really create 'random' then there would have to be some kind of bias i'd assume...it would be at least interesting to build a database and see ...if it didnt work then whatever but if it did it could be profitable. and the whole point of finding a bias is killing the house edge and finding numbers with a positive ev..

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

there are also lots of sites with a single zero instead of a double zero so the house edge is smaller on those ..

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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... well since you can't really create 'random' then there would have to be some kind of bias i'd assume...

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You can generate random numbers -- much more random electronically than in a casino. There may be bias in a casino wheel -- but I doubt the wheel has enough bias to compromise the game. Then there's the procedures which can be exploited. That can be enough -- given the right circumstances.

But ... online the selection is truly random. The images are simply representing a predetermined random outcome.

You'd have much better luck with B&M casinos. Probably not enough, but better.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

radioactive decay

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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... well since you can't really create 'random' then there would have to be some kind of bias i'd assume...

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You can generate random numbers -- much more random electronically than in a casino.

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No, you can't. Random means just that, random. If you have some physicaly entity creating the numbers, it's not 100% random. It just appears that way.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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... well since you can't really create 'random' then there would have to be some kind of bias i'd assume...

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You can generate random numbers -- much more random electronically than in a casino.

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No, you can't. Random means just that, random. If you have some physicaly entity creating the numbers, it's not 100% random. It just appears that way.

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Actually we don't live in a world governed by classical mechanics. The measurement of quantum mechanical systems are in fact probabilistic events that can in turn be used to generate random sets of numbers. Bell's Theorem rules out reasonable hidden variable theories that would allow for the observations of quantum mechanics to be explained by deterministic classical mechanics.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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... well since you can't really create 'random' then there would have to be some kind of bias i'd assume...

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You can generate random numbers -- much more random electronically than in a casino.

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No, you can't. Random means just that, random. If you have some physicaly entity creating the numbers, it's not 100% random. It just appears that way.

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Stigmata identified one way. Thermal is another ... there are many truly random methods of selecting a number electronically.

When I wrote "More random electronically than in a casino", what I meant was that casino wheels, cards, dice, etc. are far more vulnerable to tampering and wear than a good electronic RNG -- and therefore more likely to display bias (if that's what you're looking for).

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

well i don;t know of any tracker software that tracks all the numbers, do you?
otherwise i might try it out for fun, but the numbers have to be tracked automatically, i ain't gonna notate 500k numbers by hand lol

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

This sounds like a brilliant plan.

gogogo!

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

Popeye, send me a private message and i'll give you my email... I actually wrote a program to auto play roulette on bodog so i can start tracking some data. I have set it up to be easily adaptable to other sites. Lets do some tracking.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

Surely by the time you have any useful sample size you will be busto?

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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... well since you can't really create 'random' then there would have to be some kind of bias i'd assume...

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You can generate random numbers -- much more random electronically than in a casino.

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No, you can't. Random means just that, random. If you have some physicaly entity creating the numbers, it's not 100% random. It just appears that way.

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<edit, better definition>From wiki:
The word random is used to express lack of order, purpose, cause, or predictability in non-scientific parlance. A random process is a repeating process whose outcomes follow no describable deterministic pattern, but follow a probability distribution.


are these numbers that "appear to be random" statistically corelated or deterministic? its one thing to be a huge [censored] nit, its another thing to be a huge [censored] nit who is wrong.

All,
as has been mentioned, it is possible to harvest truly random noise from physical sources such as radioactive decay and electromagnetic noise. There are several public internet services that stream random data for personal use.

Here's how random.org does it:
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The way the generator works is quite simple. A PC running GNU/Linux is equipped with a series of sound cards, each of which is connected to a radio. The radios are tuned into (different) frequencies where nobody is broadcasting, and the atmospheric noise picked up by the receiver is fed into the PC through the sound card. A program samples the noise as an eight-bit mono signal at a frequency of 8 Khz. The upper seven bits of each sample are discarded immediately and the remaining bits are gathered and turned into a stream of bits with a high content of entropy

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There's more to it than that; see here. http://www.random.org/tech-details/

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

I think you also have to differentiate between bias and predictability. Either would be exploitable of course, but even normal PRNGs that don't use physical sources for bit generation should not display any bias if the algorithms are any good. As far as predictability goes, for a PRNG normally that would mean knowing what the algorithm was and finding a vulnerability in the way it was being seeded such that you could predict the seed, and hence get the entire sequence.

One would assume that most if not all online casinos are using true random physical sources so that shouldn't be an option in any case. It seems conceivable that a physical random source like radio noise could display a bias. It's still unlikely but IMO more likely than a well-understood PRNG having one. If the casino was smart they would be sampling their own data to check for biases anyway.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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It seems conceivable that a physical random source like radio noise could display a bias. It's still unlikely but IMO more likely than a well-understood PRNG having one.

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RNGs using physical sources are also well understood, discarding data that would be naturally related (Benford's Law), and mixing sources. Personally, I'm skeptical of results I get from a PRNG. Sometimes I think it's just a little too perfect.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

I had to look up Benford's law, I wasn't familiar with it. Looks interesting. Thanks!

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

I have 500K+ hands from the same generator. Give me an e-mail and is end it to you as text.

If you are interested in BM numbers use this link All numbers are from single 0 wheels and the wheels were never moved around.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

PokerHund --

Interesting link. But I don't understand the double dashes in the Black column -- and I don't understand German. Can you explain?

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

I don't know what you mean . Just click on details to get a summary (or choose a date to look up).
Häufigkeit : how often a number came up that day
rot: red
schwarz: black
gerade: pair
ungerade: odd

you can also download as text and feed your roulette software to find any bias. There are a lot more Casinos here that offer this. They lost a nice amount and most places got new wheels about a year ago. Many wheels still show biases but not enough to make some serious $$. US wheels are much better but unfortunatly Casinos in USA are not stupid enough to give away the data . You have to write down the numbers but then you usually find some damn good wheels.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

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... I don't understand the double dashes in the Black column -

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I don't know what you mean.

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If you look at the data columns for the individual tables, in the black column there periodically appears a double dash "--" that doesn't appear in any other column. It doesn't represent a trial -- but it must mean something. Could it be a change of dealer, or change of ball?

Curious minds want to know.

Re: finding a bias on a roulette wheel online
 

OK. Now i understand. It's the sign that the hand (dealer) changed.