Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

I never hear any mention of his name or his book on this site. Is there a reason for this? He has interesting and insightful information on his website, and there are even references to his The Complete Book of Hold 'Em Poker in SSHE, although he is sharply critical of both Malmuth and Sklansky at times. Is this perhaps why I don't hear his name pop up?

Any thoughts?

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

We let his body of work speak for itself.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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We let his body of work speak for itself.

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What an illuminating response, and one that ironically exceeds my expectations for this forum.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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We let his body of work speak for itself.

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What an illuminating response, and one that ironically exceeds my expectations for this forum.

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1st - dont be a jerk, you will get better responses when you dont lash out at people who volenteer their opinion even if you don't think its worthy.

2nd - Gary Carson doesnt matter anymore, his work has been eclipsed, there are far batter things to discuss now than his books. Yes there was a time when there was bad blood, but it doesn't matter anymore because his body of work has become marginalized by the books that have come out by both 2+2 and non-2+2 publishing companies since his works were originally released.

Its interesting to note that 2+2 gave Gary credit in the footnotes of Small Stakes Hold'em numerous times even though Mason was not a huge fan of his overall work.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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1st - dont be a jerk, you will get better responses when you dont lash out at people who volenteer their opinion even if you don't think its worthy.

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Given the context of my response, I disagree with you. But that's all right.

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Its interesting to note that 2+2 gave Gary credit in the footnotes of Small Stakes Hold'em numerous times even though Mason was not a huge fan of his overall work.

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I also find this interesting. It's one reason I posted the question. I appreciate the response and the historical perspective you have given.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

I haven't read his books but I know he wanted to expand a chapter about strategy into a new book. He points out that TOP is about tactics, not strategy. This is true. Poker strategy doesn't get written about much, it's the stuff that successful players work out for themselves and don't post on forums (or write in books, which tend to be less advanced than forums), although I suppose the SPR stuff from PNL is getting there.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

His online persona is somewhat nasty. Whether or not that is reflective of his real life character, I don't know. He certainly considers himself an iconoclast. Since 2+2 are the icons, he sees himself in opposition to all things 2+2.

Part of the reason he isn't visible here is that he insisted all of his old posts be removed after some nastiness with Mason. So being an outsider is at least partly his choice. However, he seems to be up to date on the goings-on on 2+2, so his consciousness lingers here.

If and when he contributes something notable and new, I'm sure there will be discussion here. If it's in book form, it will appear on this forum. [Calling random internet forum posters names and rehashing old arguments don't count.]

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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We let his body of work speak for itself.

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What an illuminating response, and one that ironically exceeds my expectations for this forum.

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Hey Gary. Howya been?

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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We let his body of work speak for itself.

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What an illuminating response, and one that ironically exceeds my expectations for this forum.

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Hey Gary. Howya been?

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1st - dont be a jerk...

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Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

I gave his book on hold'em a quick read a couple of years ago. I actually thought it was quite good, especially since he wrote pretty extensively about adjusting your play based on table conditions. Probably very few here will agree with me but that's okay too.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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I gave his book on hold'em a quick read a couple of years ago. I actually thought it was quite good, especially since he wrote pretty extensively about adjusting your play based on table conditions. Probably very few here will agree with me but that's okay too.

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I think of it as a companion to SSHE, which is focused more on a loose passive table. Carson's book is more interested in loose aggressive settings. I'd suggest reading both books with an open mind while actually thinking about poker.

Carson's book has its flaws. It doesn't seem to have much at all on turn and river play. I seem to recall that it has some laughable psychology, especially in the part concerning female players. But it also has its strong points. My favorite chapter in his book is the one on theories of poker.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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My favorite chapter in his book is the one on theories of poker.

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That would be the one he wants to make a whole book out of. I suggest he does, rather than his proposed no-limit book, which would surely arrive to a crowded market.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

I also thought Complete Book of HoldEm was interesting, even if I disagreed with it on many fronts. I'll 3rd(?) the endorsement for sections concerning the theory of holdem.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

I also own Carson's book and liked it, but it was like checkers to the chess of Small Stakes by Miller.

Carson has some interesting things to say in his blogs or even a few of his posts on RGP. But it is hard to respect someone who is that much of an ass and a know-it-all but has absolutely zero accomplishments to back it up.

He plays 1-2 no-limit ... live. He had a blog about putting together a bankroll for the 2007 WSOP. A few months before the tournament, he had to give up the ghost. He couldn't do it.

How can there be this much of a gap between a theorist and an actual player? Malmuth sometimes gets ragged on here for his actual play, but wasn't he at least a winning 20-40 or better limit player for quite a while?

Sklansky doesn't play in "The Big Game," but he does play pretty big.

Carson rags Negreanu and lots of other name players, but he strikes me as a guy who is so scared to fail he does nothing at all.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

Carson is an interesting fellow. If I remember his life story correctly, he's bipolar, something that caused him to go from some sort of executive-type job to homeless at one point. I want to say that he might have had other problems like alcohol, but I'm not sure.

I know Carson has played higher in the past. I just don't know how high. I have seen descriptions of him playing in 20/40 limit games before.

Carson has a chip on his shoulder specifically when it comes to Negreanu because of some sort of heads-up freezeout that DN supposedly backed out of.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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Sklansky doesn't play in "The Big Game," but he does play pretty big.


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I read a book that was recommended by Ed Miller on his website called "Winning secrets of poker" by a guy named Peter Fornatale. It is basically a collection of interviews with several poker players- some famous and well known, some unknown professionals. One of the interviews is with David Sklansky. In it, Sklansky mentions that he plays 800/1600 limit. I think that certainly qualifies as "big."

As far as Carsons book is concerned, I think it is quite a good book. He had some very interesting things to say about the game of limit hold 'em that at that time, had not been said previously. Of course when SSHE came out, Carson's book became basically obsolete.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

Interesting posts. I mainly picked his book up because of the reference in SSHE. I stumbled upon his blog the other day and have been reading some posts. He does seem to have a lot to say about a lot of subjects.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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Carson is an interesting fellow. If I remember his life story correctly, he's bipolar, something that caused him to go from some sort of executive-type job to homeless at one point. I want to say that he might have had other problems like alcohol, but I'm not sure.

I know Carson has played higher in the past. I just don't know how high. I have seen descriptions of him playing in 20/40 limit games before.

Carson has a chip on his shoulder specifically when it comes to Negreanu because of some sort of heads-up freezeout that DN supposedly backed out of.

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If I remember right, Carson agreed to a match, but wanted to be able to make a show about it, something along the lines of "average joe vs. big-time pro."

Negreanu said that's ridiculous, let's just play.

I remember it as Carson criticizing Negreanu, Negreanu doing the macho "let's play heads up" thing, Carson agreeing, then making demand after demand after demand until Negreanu gave up.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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[I remember it as Carson criticizing Negreanu, Negreanu doing the macho "let's play heads up" thing, Carson agreeing, then making demand after demand after demand until Negreanu gave up.

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Negreanu offered Carson 10-1. Carson accepted, and thought he could raise 100k. Carson certainly didn't make demand after demand until Daniel gave up. It was Negreanu that kept backing out, largely due to being broke at the time.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

Carson was extremely nasty when he used to post here years ago, he and Mason had a falling out because of it; Mason was correct to kick him out of here. But I think the reason for the lack of mention of his name here is that he has nothing in his published work worthy, any more, of continued discussion.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

I believe the references to his book were minor in nature and probably nothing Ed Miller/David didn't know already. Just stuff that was in his book before Ed published his.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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I think of it as a companion to SSHE, which is focused more on a loose passive table. Carson's book is more interested in loose aggressive settings. I'd suggest reading both books with an open mind while actually thinking about poker.


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It was actually written as a reply to HEFAP. But SSHE is largely HEFAP edited for loose-passive games. I read all 3.

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Carson's book has its flaws. It doesn't seem to have much at all on turn and river play. I seem to recall that it has some laughable psychology, especially in the part concerning female players. But it also has its strong points. My favorite chapter in his book is the one on theories of poker.

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That was the highlight of his book. The discussions on poker theory and game conditions were better then the "do this, do that" parts of the book.

In a way it's better for me that most people here don't read his book. They don't know his ideas exist and can't see where strategy should be changed.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

I think the book was pretty awful. The discussion of game conditions implies you can play extremely loose preflop at a loose game. There are a lot of bad books by weak players on playing low limit limit holdem, but this is one of the worst.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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I believe the references to his book were minor in nature and probably nothing Ed Miller/David didn't know already. Just stuff that was in his book before Ed published his.

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Lets give some credit where it belongs - most of these ideas were first released to the poker world by Abul, who built upon the foundation of previous works.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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I think the book was pretty awful. The discussion of game conditions implies you can play extremely loose preflop at a loose game. There are a lot of bad books by weak players on playing low limit limit holdem, but this is one of the worst.

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there are times where he is easy to misinterpret. I think that is one of them. (It's even easier to misinterpret some of the older 2+@ books). That hardly makes it "the worst"

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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There are a lot of bad books by weak players on playing low limit limit holdem, but this is one of the worst.

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B*llocks.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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There are a lot of bad books by weak players on playing low limit limit holdem, but this is one of the worst.

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I wouldn't go that far, but i still wouldn't recommend it at this stage, there is no reason too when the other books on the market surpass the redeeming values of Gary's book.

Re: Is Gary Carson a Dirty Phrase?
 

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I believe the references to his book were minor in nature and probably nothing Ed Miller/David didn't know already. Just stuff that was in his book before Ed published his.

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Lets give some credit where it belongs - most of these ideas were first released to the poker world by Abul, who built upon the foundation of previous works.

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I can't remember if it was on his blog or RGP, but I seem to recall Carson blowing a gasket because he thought that SSHE described the concept of Morton's theorem without actually crediting Andy Morton.