please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

"I do wish to impress upon you that variance is not a bad thing in
poker--if there was no variance--that is, if the skillful players
always
won at their expected rate, the lesser players would never play with
good players, such as yourself, on even ground. If you compare poker
with other games of skill, you will notice that in no other game do
tens
of thousands of players make a living from the game. In chess, for
example, you will not find any poor players playing against expert
players for money on an even playing field.

I understand that this is hard to grasp when one is being run over by
seemingly lesser players, but variance allows the game to exist, and
the
less expert players to continue playing and enjoying themselves--if a
poor player always lost, there would be no game (certainly no good
game)
in existence. It is actually a blessing for winning players such as
yourself that occasionally, poor play is rewarded and good play is
punished. Be confident that if you continue to play well, the
statistics
will take care of themselves and approach its theoretical mean. Keep
playing, and keep studying the game, and I know that you will succeed
in
the long run."

This is an email i received from Full Tilt support after complaining about constant ridiculous beats. This reply is unbelievable in my eyes and 99% of the people I have showed it to cannot believe that they would even say something like this. The part of special interest to myself and most people who have seen it is the part where they mention and i quote the email "if the skillful players always
won at their expected rate, the lesser players would never play with good players, such as yourself, on even ground."
To me, this says that if your hand should have an 80% chance of winning( 80% being the expected rate) and in these situations I am winning at a 50-60% rate then that explains why. And i am losing to ridiculous calls that have no business being in the hand after the post flop bet and hit runner runner constantly or 4 or less outers. This to me says that Full Tilt is playing with the odds to give bad play wins that they shouldn't receive to keep them playing thus making Full Tilt more money. And playing with the math, in other words adjusting the odds, says that the site is rigged. Please tell me your opinion of this email.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

i noticed a large amount of beats there as well, i actually have my own post on here as to whether or not ftp is rigged.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

that is not what they said you idiot

they said that poor play is sometimes rewarded (20% favorites win occasionally) and that it is a good thing for the game of poker

they are right.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]


they said that poor play is sometimes rewarded (20% favorites win occasionally)

[/ QUOTE ]
its not 20% that they are winning at jackass. thats what this is about. The most ridiculous beats happen on FT that I call the site FullOfShit because when I get my money in good and lose 60-70% of the time, that is not reality in live games no matter how many hands you play.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
i noticed a large amount of beats there as well, i actually have my own post on here as to whether or not ftp is rigged.

[/ QUOTE ]
where is it? I'd like to read it.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

how many hand you think you need to be 'run over by lesser players' before you actually become a donk?

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
how many hand you think you need to be 'run over by lesser players' before you actually become a donk?

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the problem. I can't play that stupid. Ive tried but why do I have to play a different game online than I do live? it should be the same game and it's not at FT

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

You sound like you'll never play enough poker in your lifetime for the numbers to even out.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

the problem is your account, you need to buy a lucky account to be able to make any money at poker. search around, i seem to remember someone was selling his.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

Last time I lost a bigger pot was my KK against 93o. A nine appeared on the flop, so the villain raised my bet which I obviously re-raised. We were re-raising each other (this was FL), until I just called on the river believing he had hit trips. Yes, there was a 3 on the river.

Nevetheless I do believe donks eventually lose. I also do believe I will win many pots with KK in the future.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

I think the letter was well written, grammatically correct and spoke the truth in a way that is easy for 6th graders to understand -- should they choose to understand it.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

you know this is degrading into another bad beat story which is not what I inteneded. Please feel free to share your bad beats but what is your opinion on the email.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

How many total hands of online play do you have?

I believe the author of this email sent to you has a very strong understanding of why fish continue to play a game in which they are destined to eventually lose. You may want to re-evaluate your understanding of variance.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many total hands of online play do you have?

I believe the author of this email sent to you has a very strong understanding of why fish continue to play a game in which they are destined to eventually lose. You may want to re-evaluate your understanding of variance.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was actually an email from Full Tilt support and Ive played about over 150 thousand hands online and I lose at about a 60-70% rate when i get my money in good after the flop.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

I'm impressed by this email. It speaks the truth and I would never expect a site to actually point that out. You should be grateful for such a well thought out response. Heck, I'm going to cut and paste it and send it to all the crybabies who claim internet poker is rigged.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
"the lesser players would never play with good players, such as yourself, on even ground

[/ QUOTE ]
this is obv the part where they use artistic licence to try to make u feel good about urself.

just in case u didnt notice this blatant lie first time round.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ive played about over 150 thousand hands online and I lose at about a 60-70% rate when i get my money in good after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky bucks graph please.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

If you're too obtuse to understand the letter, you're probably not going to be very good at poker either. Thank you for your contribution to the poker economy.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
its not 20% that they are winning at jackass. thats what this is about. The most ridiculous beats happen on FT that I call the site FullOfShit because when I get my money in good and lose 60-70% of the time, that is not reality in live games no matter how many hands you play.

[/ QUOTE ]

please post full handhistory database please.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky bucks graph please.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also like to see this. If what you are saying is true, it should make for a sick graph

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]

This was actually an email from Full Tilt support and Ive played about over 150 thousand hands online and I lose at about a 60-70% rate when i get my money in good after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do all sites have an FGators?

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ive played about over 150 thousand hands online and I lose at about a 60-70% rate when i get my money in good after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you are saying is the equivalent of flipping a fair coin and losing 2 out of 3 of them over a reasonable number of times. It can never happen.

Prove the above and you have grounds for rigging.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ive played about over 150 thousand hands online and I lose at about a 60-70% rate when i get my money in good after the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, right, of course you do. Please please please prove this. I'd love to see your supporting evidence. This simply WOULD NOT HAPPEN! (unless you are calling with moronic hands).

Stoker, the email was incredibly well done, skoal2k4 is right too.
 

I read the email you posted and, before I got to the whining post-script, thought you did so because of how well your bad beat complaint was handled.

Fish DO play because sometimes they suck out and can run well for the short run.

Unless you have an incredible sample of hands and analysis, you are telling another "bad beat story".

FTP support took the compassionate route of listening, because they do want your business.

I'll be more blunt, if you truly lose 60& or 70% of the time you put all your money in post flop, you are not playing well. Variance has little to do with what you seem to be doing poorly. It is much more likely that when your money goes in, it is nowhere near as "good" as you believe.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

You might do better by reading a couple of books sold on this site.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

my opinion of the e-mail as requested by the OP:

1. their condescending use of "good players, such as yourself" probably needs to be changed. But I guess almost all of the e-mail is going to obviously try to appease the morons who think it's the fault of the site that the cards are somehow not running 'normal' like they do live, etc etc.

2. Looks like a pretty decent e-mail from their support to me. Although evidently they need to simplify the language even more than they already do so that even the dumbest of the dumb can understand. This is clearly the standard e-mail they constructed ahead of time to try to explain to the constant complainers who say "OMGZZ!! these cards aren't the same" and it seems fine to me but obviously some players who think the site is out to get him or that the cards just "aren't normal" are going to read something into it that isn't there at all.

Based on the OP's reaction to the e-mail and supposedly that other people agree with him that there is something dastardly in there I'm thinking perhaps FT and Stars and other sites trying to actually be polite while explaining this stuff should just go the Kyleb route and respond, "Only morons think the cards somehow run differently just for them. Have a nice day."

That's probably not such a great idea though unfortunately.
I'm sure these decently written form e-mails they send to the complainers actually do make at least partial sense to SOME of their recipients.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]

To me, this says that if your hand should have an 80% chance of winning( 80% being the expected rate) and in these situations I am winning at a 50-60% rate then that explains why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every person who ever came on these forums and claimed that a site was rigged has said the same thing. And they, like you, had no data to back up their claim.

[ QUOTE ]
And i am losing to ridiculous calls that have no business being in the hand after the post flop bet and hit runner runner constantly or 4 or less outers.

[/ QUOTE ]

As FTP pointed out, these people lose in the long run. That's what makes poker profitable for the minority of good players.

[ QUOTE ]
This to me says that Full Tilt is playing with the odds to give bad play wins that they shouldn't receive to keep them playing thus making Full Tilt more money. And playing with the math, in other words adjusting the odds, says that the site is rigged.

[/ QUOTE ]

The letter doesn't say that they are playing with the odds. It says that some players winning against the odds is normal and expected.

[ QUOTE ]
Please tell me your opinion of this email.

[/ QUOTE ]

My opinion of the email is that it is correct and logical.

My opinion of your post is that you don't understand variance, that you do not understand poker, and that you are not a very good player. And that you have significant problems of self-denial about your abilities.

Also, if you are right and the rest of the world is wrong, why do you continue to play at a site where you are so convinced that you are being cheated?

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

Stoker, huh? Like to stoke a fire?

Nice gimmick account.

I assume this will be locked very soon, so in before lock.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

At least you got an e-mail from FTP. I still haven't been able to figure out how to get any more than an autoresponse from them that tells me they'll answer my question when they get around to it.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please feel free to share your bad beats but what is your opinion on the email.

[/ QUOTE ]

Full Tilt's response was quite level-headed considering the utter absurdity of your accusation. Unless of course you actually have played through a substantive sample and can prove that you're not just hitting the outer rim of variance.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

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I'm impressed by this email.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm impressed by this email.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
the problem is your account, you need to buy a lucky account to be able to make any money at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is very true.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is actually a blessing for winning players such as
yourself

[/ QUOTE ]


Stupid email. If OP was a winning player he would not be posting OP.

Tilt support is tardo for saying he's a winning player

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]

Tilt support is tardo for saying he's a winning player

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the only evidence I saw that Full Tilt might be rigged.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

I don't get why people actually email pokersites saying its rigged or whatnot. What do they expect in responce? "oh sorry thanks for bring this to our attention we will have it fixed asap!"

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

Makes sense. I think it is a good response.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

I was in the same boat as you -- my 80-20s were running at about 25-75, but this was only for a few thousand hands. I must say that I am running better now, probably winning at 80-20 or better. I think your claims are a bit outrageous and would like to see the data as well.

Whoever said these kind of situations happen live, when I was playing live a couple weeks ago I saw set over set four times in only a couple hundred hands. The coolers, the beats, and the frustrations are there in live poker too.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
you know this is degrading into another bad beat story which is not what I inteneded. Please feel free to share your bad beats but what is your opinion on the email.

[/ QUOTE ]

My opinion is that it's a surprisingly well-written and accurate email. And it comes from Full Tilt, which just goes to show that even the blind squirrel occasionally gets the acorn.

Re: please tell your opinion of this email from FullTilt i received
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"the lesser players would never play with good players, such as yourself, on even ground

[/ QUOTE ]


this is a blatant lie ldo

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT