Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

After all that I had read and heard about electronic poker tables I was not a fan. I arrived at 11 pm Wednesday to find the casino rocking and rolling. When I walked into the e-poker room there were four tables going. They had 3-6 limit and 1-2 no limit games going with $3 max rake. I sat down at one of the $200 max buy-in 1-2 no limit games and played for five hours. After playing I felt that the e-poker tables are not that bad. There are some things that I like and other things I don’t like. A good poker player can gain an edge on electronic poker tables close to a live game with dealer. I plan on playing once or twice a week to see if can keep an edge with the no limit games.

Here are a few odds and ends on the poker room. The room has 19 poker tables with four of them two player heads up tables. The poker room will be running about 14 weekly Holdem & Omaha tournaments. Sit-N-Go’s will be run any time they get enough players. They will be running all kinds of satellite tournaments for the World Poker Tour.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

umm... Some things you liked and some things you didn't.. Explain??? And whats this "edge" you are talking about? I personally don't get it, why wouldn't you want to just stay at home and play on Stars in your underwear. The rake is less, you save on gas and you can play more hands a hour.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

How do you know your opponents' stack size? Is it displayed similar to online sites?

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Dammit, I overslept. I finished at 6 this morning and came home for a nap. I wanted to be back up there by noon. Always time for an update, though.

Joe, I wish I had bumped in to you last night. I didn't hit the poker room until around 1 a.m. I only played heads up sng's last night, I was the dork with the Full Tilt beer coozie and shirt.

Concerning stack sizes, there is a display at the bottom of your individual screen with the opposing players name and his stack size underneath it. I'm not sure if it also does this in full ring games, because I was playing sit n gos all night. It also shows the stack sizes of each player in the main center screen, just in front of each players spot.

It sounds crowded the way I describe it, but after a couple games I found it pretty easy to keep track of.

The staff seemed pretty well versed at setting up the games, although they certainly weren't crowded, plus the PokerTek vendors were on hand to straighten out any mix ups. Plus, the were giving away PokerTek hats! Now who wouldn't wear one of those with pride?

I love the last hand feature in the upper right corner. Just like Full Tilt, it gives a screen shot of the ending action. I didn't notice any type of hand history though.

You pay at the cage and they put credit on your players card, which you insert in the machine. The floor has it set up already for the game you selected.

It may have been the surroundings, it may have been the donkishness created by constantly chatting with friends, showing them the table, etc, but I think the nature of the video tables had a lot to do with what in hindsight was abnormaly laggish play by me. Virtual money just seemed easier to let go of. It may have been the $1.50 beer though, too.

The heads up sng's only start with 1k chips and go fast.

I didn't find the room particularly luxurious or anything. Very roomy. Cocktail service wasn't too tardy, especially considering the opening crowds. I'm assuming the tables are fixed in place for all the wiring they must take, but they have a lot of room for more tables if they wanted them.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Thanks for the help.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
umm... Some things you liked and some things you didn't.. Explain??? And whats this "edge" you are talking about? I personally don't get it, why wouldn't you want to just stay at home and play on Stars in your underwear. The rake is less, you save on gas and you can play more hands a hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been playing profitable poker in the Chicago area for many years. Let me make it clear that I am not saying the e-poker tables are better than live or internet games. But I feel that they have some advantages. Four Winds only has a $3 max rake compared to the $5 rake offered by other casinos and the e-tables games run much faster. A light in front of the player lights up when it is the players turn so you can observe his actions. You can see if the players have a Bud Light in front of him or Super Systems II. You can change seats very quickly if a seat opens up. With live games the chips are piled in the center and hard to count. With e-poker tables pot totals are on the center screen with bets of players in front of them. On your screen it shows the total wager is along with each players chip totals. There is a button on your screen that shows the last hand.

In live games the way a player holds chips can lead to tells. With e-poker tables this is out the window. But I am sure new tells will be picked up with the e-poker tables. I find in live no limit games that run slow that some players get impatient and start playing any junk hands. With the speed of the e-tables hands come quickly. At this point I am not saying the electronic tables are good or bad. If the e-tables turn out to be profitable than I plan on making many visits to Four Winds Casino.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

I will be thee tommorow evening. I just have ti check them out .I personally cant wait for the sattys to WPT .

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

IMHO, E-Machines are the future of poker, especially tournaments with large fields with a large viewing audience.

They would be perfect for big tourneys. You could still have the TV table and final table have chips and cards, although it would present a dilemma for the ESPN coverage of the main event since I don't think digital cards would be good TV when they attempt to cover hands on non-TV tables.

Advantages that come to mind are:

1. No cards to mark
2. No dealer collusion
3. Less dealers required (Would they even need any besides the TV tables?)
4. More hands per round
5. Easy tracking of stacks
6. Easy tracking of Pot size
7. Easy tracking of bet sizes
8. No dealer errors
9. Can't steal or transfer chips
10. No accidental disqualifications by pocketing chips
11. Color ups would be a thing of the past
12. Total chips in play should be theoretically perfect
13. All tables could be broadcast over the internet (without hole cards) for perfect reporting. Any hand at any table could be viewed on a re-player at a website.
14. Stats of time left in round, avg chip stack, highest chip stack, lowest chip stack or any other pertinent info could be easily displayed on each table

I can eventually see casinos bidding out tournaments to Pokertek and any other competing E-table company that would be in charge of bringing additional tables, maintaining all the tables, tech support etc for every big event. The savings in dealer labor should make this a very viable business model for the E-poker table companies.

This should reduce the rake to players (but may not since these casinos don't seem to give much back to the players when it comes to poker)

Many will be opposed to this and I suspect many people will respond to this post with skepticism, hate and doubt, but the younger generation is comfortable and used to the technology, so it’s just a matter of time.

It just makes too much sense given the difficulties in running huge events the size we see today.

If I had the time and money, I would seek to start my own E-tour in cahoots with various casinos, Pokertek and hopefully various sponsors. The whole thing could be independently run and the casino would receive a fee for hosting an E-tour event and only need to provide space for the event to take place in. The casino would still run the side games and get the rake off of those games like any other tour. It could be one stop shopping for the casino that goes straight to their bottom line and increase their poker and other casino business already in place because of the traffic each event should bring to the casino.

I would also add a “Pokerdome” aspect to the tour where the final table could be viewed live with hole cards & broadcast over the internet. I would have seating inside the dome where these viewers could not see the cards but add to the fanfare of the live event while also have an audience that could see the event outside of the dome with hole cards shown. The idea is there for the taking and I bet someone will do it. If the UIGA gets overturned or a carve out for poker is achieved, then the sponsorships by the various websites would further add to the revenue. You could have the PokerStars E-Tour, The Part Poker E-tour, etc, etc, etc.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dammit, I overslept. I finished at 6 this morning and came home for a nap. I wanted to be back up there by noon. Always time for an update, though.

Joe, I wish I had bumped in to you last night. I didn't hit the poker room until around 1 a.m. I only played heads up sng's last night, I was the dork with the Full Tilt beer coozie and shirt.

Concerning stack sizes, there is a display at the bottom of your individual screen with the opposing players name and his stack size underneath it. I'm not sure if it also does this in full ring games, because I was playing sit n gos all night. It also shows the stack sizes of each player in the main center screen, just in front of each players spot.

It sounds crowded the way I describe it, but after a couple games I found it pretty easy to keep track of.

The staff seemed pretty well versed at setting up the games, although they certainly weren't crowded, plus the PokerTek vendors were on hand to straighten out any mix ups. Plus, the were giving away PokerTek hats! Now who wouldn't wear one of those with pride?

I love the last hand feature in the upper right corner. Just like Full Tilt, it gives a screen shot of the ending action. I didn't notice any type of hand history though.

You pay at the cage and they put credit on your players card, which you insert in the machine. The floor has it set up already for the game you selected.

It may have been the surroundings, it may have been the donkishness created by constantly chatting with friends, showing them the table, etc, but I think the nature of the video tables had a lot to do with what in hindsight was abnormaly laggish play by me. Virtual money just seemed easier to let go of. It may have been the $1.50 beer though, too.

The heads up sng's only start with 1k chips and go fast.

I didn't find the room particularly luxurious or anything. Very roomy. Cocktail service wasn't too tardy, especially considering the opening crowds. I'm assuming the tables are fixed in place for all the wiring they must take, but they have a lot of room for more tables if they wanted them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw you there I was sitting at table 10. I plan on going tonight I will be wearing an POW-MIA hat.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
umm... Some things you liked and some things you didn't.. Explain??? And whats this "edge" you are talking about? I personally don't get it, why wouldn't you want to just stay at home and play on Stars in your underwear. The rake is less, you save on gas and you can play more hands a hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been playing profitable poker in the Chicago area for many years. Let me make it clear that I am not saying the e-poker tables are better than live or internet games. But I feel that they have some advantages. Four Winds only has a $3 max rake compared to the $5 rake offered by other casinos and the e-tables games run much faster. A light in front of the player lights up when it is the players turn so you can observe his actions. You can see if the players have a Bud Light in front of him or Super Systems II. You can change seats very quickly if a seat opens up. With live games the chips are piled in the center and hard to count. With e-poker tables pot totals are on the center screen with bets of players in front of them. On your screen it shows the total wager is along with each players chip totals. There is a button on your screen that shows the last hand.

In live games the way a player holds chips can lead to tells. With e-poker tables this is out the window. But I am sure new tells will be picked up with the e-poker tables. I find in live no limit games that run slow that some players get impatient and start playing any junk hands. With the speed of the e-tables hands come quickly. At this point I am not saying the electronic tables are good or bad. If the e-tables turn out to be profitable than I plan on making many visits to Four Winds Casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like this may be a good blend of the best features of both live (observation of opponents) and internet (speed and lack or errors) play.

One additional aspect is that this may induce the internet players to try live play. In reading various forums here I have noticed a low level undercurrent of live vs internet. Maybe the internet players, who may have a fear of cards, chips, tells ..., will be willing to come to a B&M to try this out.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Chicago Joe, I took tonight off. I had to go back to work today, and needed to rest up for the weekend. I'm hoping some of the turnys they had listed will go off. That place is gonna kill me. And besides, Dr Who and Monk are on. I'll be there early Saturday for the weekend.

Very concise review of the room Joe. Don't you think they could use another kiosk for picking your table, and a better wait system, at least for calling the tables? I missed my table a couple times.

And it's just cruel to put the craps tables so far from the poker room. (see above and missing my table)

My intersting story was bumping in to Lyle Berman on the floor Thursday night. I noticed him walking around by himself, and stalked him for awhile to make sure it was him. I'm like that. I introduced myself, shook his hand, and recommended my local business for all his needs of that nature, lmao. I then invited him back to the poker room for a game. He seemed very nice. I'm sure he called security as soon as I left.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, E-Machines are the future of poker, especially tournaments with large fields with a large viewing audience.



[/ QUOTE ]

You about summed it all up. That is certainly the way things are headed, especially when you consider the software / computer technology of etables is constantly evolving and will get even better.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, E-Machines are the future of poker, especially tournaments with large fields with a large viewing audience.



[/ QUOTE ]

You about summed it all up. That is certainly the way things are headed, especially when you consider the software / computer technology of etables is constantly evolving and will get even better.

[/ QUOTE ]

They said that about electronic blackjack several years ago also.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
Chicago Joe, I took tonight off. I had to go back to work today, and needed to rest up for the weekend. I'm hoping some of the turnys they had listed will go off. That place is gonna kill me. And besides, Dr Who and Monk are on. I'll be there early Saturday for the weekend.

Very concise review of the room Joe. Don't you think they could use another kiosk for picking your table, and a better wait system, at least for calling the tables? I missed my table a couple times.

And it's just cruel to put the craps tables so far from the poker room. (see above and missing my table)

My intersting story was bumping in to Lyle Berman on the floor Thursday night. I noticed him walking around by himself, and stalked him for awhile to make sure it was him. I'm like that. I introduced myself, shook his hand, and recommended my local business for all his needs of that nature, lmao. I then invited him back to the poker room for a game. He seemed very nice. I'm sure he called security as soon as I left.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will let you know when I plan th be there next. One of the poker room managers said that they are considering having players put there name on the list from the internet.

World\'s Largest Installation of Electronic Poker Tables
 

Four Winds casino's PokerPro tables go live
3 August 2007

Nineteen PokerPro Tables Go Live at Four Winds Casino Resort in New Buffalo, MI Thursday August 2, 4:51 pm ET World Poker Tour Poker Room is 100% PokerPro, World's Largest Installation of Electronic Poker Tables

MATTHEWS, North Carolina -- (PRESS RELEASE) -- Four Winds Casino Resort, in New Buffalo, Michigan, opened the world's largest automated poker room today, running exclusively on PokerTek (NASDAQ: PTEK) poker tables.

The Four Winds Poker Room features fifteen PokerPro® 10-seat tables and four PokerPro Heads-Up tables.

The Four Winds property, which opened on August 2nd, is owned by the Pokagon Band of Potawatomi Indians and managed by Lakes Entertainment. Four Winds has over 3,000 slot machines, 100 table games, 6 restaurants, 5 bars and 165 hotel rooms in addition to the 19-table poker room.

"Four Winds is committed to delivering the best gaming and entertainment experience possible and PokerPro is part of that commitment," said Matt Harkness, Four Winds Casino Resort General Manager. "We are proud to open this state-of-the-art, all-PokerPro poker room."

"The Pokagon Band has been an ideal partner for PokerTek's largest installation to date," said Lou White, PokerTek's Chief Executive Officer. "Their commitment to electronic poker is phenomenal, as evidenced by the size and quality of their new poker room. PokerTek is pleased to be working with an operator whose dedication to making this room a success is only rivaled by their desire to exceed player's expectations by offering such a broad range of game offerings, tournament schedules and major tournament satellite events."

The room will offer Limit and No Limit Texas Hold'em cash games, Limit and Pot Limit Omaha Hi and Hi/Lo cash games, and Single and Multi-Table tournaments with a variety of buy-ins. Players can also play to win seats into major events and compete in heads-up tournaments on one of the four PokerPro Heads-Up tables.

"We're going to offer the best action in the region," said Harkness. "Our tournament schedule is second to none, our games are all reasonably priced and playing on PokerPro gives players more action with fewer hassles and distractions."

PokerPro® is an electronic poker table that allows players to compete against each other in live poker. Players use their individual touch-screen to view their cards, call, raise or fold, while viewing the pot, community cards, and players chip stacks on the large center display. Players will notice that the games are fast with a 50% increase in the hands dealt every hour when compared to a manual poker table, as well as total accuracy and social interaction among players.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

I arrived at Four Winds around 12:30 PM on Thursday, August 2nd. Since I'm completely an Internet player (and not much of one, anymore, at that) I figured I'd add my two cents. Be forwarned: I've never played poker at a casino before. Upon entering the casino we were immediately greeted, handed a map of the premises, and asked where we were headed first. Having driven for two hours, we requested the restrooms. Our hostess then asked where we were headed next, we answered that we were going to the poker room. She directed us to a set of restrooms on the way to the poker room. I thought it was a nice touch.

As others have said, once arriving at the poker room we were ID'd, and set up our players' card. We then proceeded to the cage and added money to our account. Unfortunately, they were not accepting credit/debit cards, so I had to hit an ATM. One of the poker room managers wanted to take some time to see if he could figure out a way for me to add money without paying ATM fees. I told him it was alright, I didn't mind, but again, I thought it a nice gesture.

I only spent perhaps 5 or 6 hours playing poker at 2 different tables. Both were 3/6. Between tables I had a chance to talk to one of the table's representatives. He and I chatted for 15 or 20 minutes. A few points we discussed:

- I asked him about straddling, checking in the dark, etc as I had heard some complaints from others at the tables. He informed me that the software is all set up to accomodate such features but led me to believe they have not been turned on yet. He even mentioned that they are set up to do side bets. Although, I'm not sure of which variety as I didn't ask.

- Apparently, they are working with the casino to allow the cage to sell players chips at the cage as well to be used for tipping the waitstaff. This was of particular interest to me as I'm the General Manager of a restaurant and watching the staff wait on people hand and foot and not being compensated for it is quite irksome (although, at my tables, people seemed to be tipping just fine).

- We talked a bit about how the tables generate random cards. He informed me that they followed the protocol set by online poker and that the cards are randomized as each card is dealt as opposed to randomizing the entire deck at the start of each hand.

Apparently, one of the 10/20 tables (a friend's grandfather told me, who was playing at the table) called over the management after a few hours of play to check the average hands per hour. They were told it was 54. I didn't see this happen, but I have no reason to believe the story was embellished.

All in all, I found the tables to be great. As I said above, I play solely on the internet. I felt that it really was the best of both worlds and was very comfortable. The learning curve didn't seem too steep, and most people seemed to catch on rather quickly. Of course, to me, the 5 or 6 players to a flop was something that I hadn't seen since .50/1.00 Party tables four years ago. After taking out gas, food, beer, and gratuity, I arrived home winning about $200. It was a fun day and one I look forward to doing again soon.

As a side note, a couple of my friends played one or two of their sit 'n gos. Apparently, you start with 1500 chips and the blinds start at 50/100. It would seem these are pretty much a crap shoot from the beginning. Meh.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

My trip(s) to Four Winds: It is hard for me, to imagine another joint opening a traditional poker room, (with "live" dealers).

Re: World\'s Largest Installation of Electronic Poker Tables
 

[ QUOTE ]
MATTHEWS, North Carolina

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a double-take at the origin of the press release, then quickly went to PokerTek's site and yes, the company is based out of North Carolina.

Which I find totally weird (and... ironic?) since poker's banned in NC and the polititians and police of NC have a hard-on for busting video poker operations of any number from 1 machine to 100.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
My trip(s) to Four Winds: It is hard for me, to imagine another joint opening a traditional poker room, (with "live" dealers).

[/ QUOTE ]

Was there on Saturday, and I have to say I was a skeptic that has been won over. I'd also say that it's much easier for a new room to start with e-tables than for an established room to switch over.

Here's my mini-review, based on about 4 hours of 3-6 limit.

PROS, in no particular order:
No dealer mistakes
No dealer tokes
No waiting for shuffles/setups/people to post the blinds/etc.
No waiting for anything period -- however, I never had the feeling of being rushed.
More hands to play.
No bad seats at the table, you're never next to the dealer or toke box/rake box. Every seat has a nice clear view of all the action and people at the table
Odds of winning for each hand show up on the table during an all-in (this is also a negative, since it didn't seem like there was a choice to show or not.)
Ability to see cards shown down on the last hand.
The way you get your cards to flip up is pretty slick.
Limited chances for angle-shooting. I couldn't think of any, but I'm sure someone will figure something out.


CONS, in no particular order:
No chips or cards. This didn't bother me at all.
No chops if folded to the blinds. Seems like this would be an easy fix.




Can anybody fill me in on why e-tables didn't work at other places?

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Figured I'll add my two cents...

I was at the Four Winds for a few hours Saturday evening. Overall I was very impressed with the casino. Here are my thoughts:

Casino Positives:
-The staff/service was the nicest I have ever seen in a casino. The place was packed and their were lines everywhere but they stayed moving. Hor dourves served to those standing in line.

-$1.50 drinks are nice. I sort of did a double take when my first order of rum and coke with a Corona only cost $3. I'm used to the Majestic Star where it's $4 for a beer.

Casino Negatives:
-No cell phone service anywhere in the place. My girlfriend and I got separated and it took over 30 minutes to find each other due to neither of us getting reception. I have Verizon and she has AT&T. Anyone else have this problem?

Poker Room:

I played in the $200 NL game for about an hour. I must say that the electronic tables are cool but overall I still prefer real poker. The games are much more social than what I expected them to be but to me they played a little tighter than other places. I made it $10 preflop three times one half and all three times the table folded around. That would have never happened at Majestic, someone would have thrown their chips in to see a flop. Don't know if it was just my table but people were less willing to put money in the pot.

From a playing standpoint I did like the e-tables more than I thought I would. You get to see everyone's chip stack displayed at all times. The game did move much faster than a real game. I found you don't save time from the players actions but the fact there is no shuffling or dealing or dealer switches or rack fills. That's nice.

Negatives:
-Maybe it was just me but I had a problem with the "check" icon being right next to the "all-in" button. You do have to confirm all your actions but I just thought it would be possible to mis-hit the check button and shove it all-in. I really don't want to relive some of my worst online poker moments.

-I was on a table that is close to the cashier's cage, in a seat facing the cashiers cage. There are no TV's in that direction. There were four TV's behind me. Not a huge deal but I like glancing at ESPN in between hands, in this instance the cashiers cage was not very entertaining.


Summary: Casino was good. Staff was great. Poker room OK. Tables were fun but not as good as real live play.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Can anybody fill me in on why e-tables didn't work at other places?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom line:
In Detroit, etables were simply introduced incorrectly.
Etables were introduced as a "novelty" 3/6 game, in a venue of established high limit and no limit games with dealers. Many players at Motor City never played a single dollar on the etables, because the "real" games all had "live" dealers.

Speculation:
Etables are leased. Nobody except the joint (Motor City), knows the details of the lease arrangement regarding on-site technical SUPPORT for the etables. In a "mixed" etable / "live" dealer environment, you have the joint PAYING "live" dealers, and simultaneously, paying for etable tech support.....hhhmmmmm....I don't know.......

QUESTION:
Does anyone know if Motor City Casino had on-site technical support staff for the etables? Will there be etable tech support persons, when etables return to Motor City casino?

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]


Every seat has a nice clear view of all the action and people at the table

Limited chances for angle-shooting. I couldn't think of any, but I'm sure someone will figure something out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, just being sarcastic but what "action"? All the people staring at a screening and poking it?

Second point, not being sarcastic, angle-shooting? That may not be a problem but with no one controlling the game (dealer), it seems like the door is not only wide open, but off the hinges for collusion.

Haven't been up there yet, so can only speak from what other players (some dealers, some 'pro' players, some casual social players) have said. Just from what I've read here alone I'm rather turned off on these E-tables as it just sounds like everything that involves any skill or ability in poker is done for you. Players have some control over what happens in a live game (with dealers), where as it seems to me there is none here. Just sounds like live internet poker (which I'm sure some embrace), but I'm not warming up to it....I'll wait until I can actually play on one for myself before condemning them too much though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Just doesn't sound much like "poker" to me *shrug*

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

I can confirm Sprint has a good signal inside Four Winds Casino. You say AT&T? That's supposed to be Cingular. A "Cingular" phone also got a good signal. Everyone with a Verizon phone had problems getting a signal inside the casino.

[ QUOTE ]


Casino Negatives:
-No cell phone service anywhere in the place. My girlfriend and I got separated and it took over 30 minutes to find each other due to neither of us getting reception. I have Verizon and she has AT&T. Anyone else have this problem?

room OK. Tables were fun but not as good as real live play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can confirm Sprint has a good signal inside Four Winds Casino. You say AT&T? That's supposed to be Cingular. A "Cingular" phone also got a good signal. Everyone with a Verizon phone had problems getting a signal inside the casino.

[ QUOTE ]


Casino Negatives:
-No cell phone service anywhere in the place. My girlfriend and I got separated and it took over 30 minutes to find each other due to neither of us getting reception. I have Verizon and she has AT&T. Anyone else have this problem?

room OK. Tables were fun but not as good as real live play.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the structure of the casino doesn't help, but New Buffalo is a horrible dead zone for cell phone signals.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Every seat has a nice clear view of all the action and people at the table

Limited chances for angle-shooting. I couldn't think of any, but I'm sure someone will figure something out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, just being sarcastic but what "action"? All the people staring at a screening and poking it?

Second point, not being sarcastic, angle-shooting? That may not be a problem but with no one controlling the game (dealer), it seems like the door is not only wide open, but off the hinges for collusion.

Haven't been up there yet, so can only speak from what other players (some dealers, some 'pro' players, some casual social players) have said. Just from what I've read here alone I'm rather turned off on these E-tables as it just sounds like everything that involves any skill or ability in poker is done for you. Players have some control over what happens in a live game (with dealers), where as it seems to me there is none here. Just sounds like live internet poker (which I'm sure some embrace), but I'm not warming up to it....I'll wait until I can actually play on one for myself before condemning them too much though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Just doesn't sound much like "poker" to me *shrug*

[/ QUOTE ]

Now Chris, let's be completely forthcoming with all angles here.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Hey I said I was being sarcastic at the first comment [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I said I can't judge until I actually play on them. But I'm just raising the point that I've heard alot of from many who HAVE played on the tables, and that is of collusion being a large issue.


To note: The point Sly is making is that I'm a "live" poker Dealer for somewhere else. I guess that should somehow disqualify me from commenting? I plan on hitting Four Winds quite often if you want to know, so it's not like I'm slamming it or anything with some agenda [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

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Every seat has a nice clear view of all the action and people at the table

Limited chances for angle-shooting. I couldn't think of any, but I'm sure someone will figure something out.


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Lol, just being sarcastic but what "action"? All the people staring at a screening and poking it?

Second point, not being sarcastic, angle-shooting? That may not be a problem but with no one controlling the game (dealer), it seems like the door is not only wide open, but off the hinges for collusion.


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I know you're joking, and that's the same idea I had before I played. But the setup of the table makes the game no more or less social than a regular game. In fact, the names displayed on the table made for easier conversation, and easy reminders to players that action was on them when they didn't notice it was their turn.

Also, I'd agree that collusion could be a big problem. In fact, due to the inability to chop the blinds, some players (including me) agreed to check it down if it was heads up between the blinds. That's collusion, although good-natured collusion.
Without a dealer to police the action, some inexperienced players could be taken advantage of.
However, there seemed to be a good supply of floorpeople to take care of any issues.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

I played for about 4 hours on Sunday. 3/6 was the highest limit game. Tried to get a 10/20 going but never succeeded. I thought the room was great not only as a novelty but just in general. Some suggestions I would have for PokerTek:

- Put the type of game either on the table screen or the player's screen. As it is, you can only tell what game is being dealt from the empty seats. If all the seats are taken, you don't know if the table is 3/6, 5/10, limit or NL or sit-n-go.

- Have a button to tip from your stack for the waitstaff.

- Posting happens automatically when you re-log in. There should be an option to wait for the big blind.

-

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Any recommendations for cheap hotels in the area?

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Wait until October or November. That area gets huge tourist traffic from Chicago during the summer.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Michigan City 12 miles away has many just off I-94

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

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Any recommendations for cheap hotels in the area?

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I think there is a holiday inn express about 5 miles or so south (maybe less) at IN39 and the toll road in LaPorte. Not sure of the exact exit number but this is a good one to try.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

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Hey I said I was being sarcastic at the first comment [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I said I can't judge until I actually play on them. But I'm just raising the point that I've heard alot of from many who HAVE played on the tables, and that is of collusion being a large issue.


To note: The point Sly is making is that I'm a "live" poker Dealer for somewhere else. I guess that should somehow disqualify me from commenting? I plan on hitting Four Winds quite often if you want to know, so it's not like I'm slamming it or anything with some agenda [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I'm just effing with you, X. I have nothing but respect for your skills. And you are correct, of course, the potential for collusion is certainly there, and would probably require more policing by the players at the table than normal. But personally, if I suspect true colluding, not the occasional slip of the tongue from an over excited toolshed, I don't expect the dealer to catch that. I would approach the floor and discretely address my concerns with him and request he keep an eye out. And honestly, you and Ralph are the only ones I would trust to notice anything but blatent collusion, anyway. You should be dealing in Vegas. Srsly.

You raise some valid points though, and many I still harbor myself, even after four hard days of playing. For me, it's the RNG scare. I sure saw a lot of hinky rivers. I'm a staunch defender of the legitimacy of on line poker, but I know 1 of the regulars we both know won't be back to Four Winds, at least for awhile. I saw him suffer two tremendous bad beats (both 2 outers) IN BACK TO BACK HANDS. The first for most of his stack, the second for the remainder. It was really painful to watch, and I hated to see his response, although I can't blame his suspicions. When you're paying the rent with your winnings, I would prefer to see the cards come out of the dealers hands, too. If only we could match the speed and accuracy of the machines.

And we never got in any 60 hands an hour. I would say we averaged 35 hands an hour at 1/2 NL. The best I saw was when at the 1$10-20 limit table we probably got in 45 or 50 hands an hour.

I had a really good night (for me) Sunday, and tried tipping the wonderfully helpful floor staff when I left. They aren't allowed to accept tips. If that's the case, I will definitely try tipping even more in the future, lol.

And the poker room manager Glenn.....that face! He looks like if you crossed him he would gleefully give your liver a sunshine and leave you floating in New Buffalo harbor.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

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Any recommendations for cheap hotels in the area?

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Besides the casino hotel, which is supposedly booked for the next 2 years. New Buffalo does have local hotels as well. Directly at the same exit (exit 1) as the casino you can find Best Western, Holiday Inn Express, Comfort Inn, and a Rodeway Inn. About 10 miles up 1-94 in Sawyer, MI, directly off the exit ramp, is a big new Super 8 motel that is probably your best value. It's easy to get to.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Anybody heading down there anytime this August? I'll be taking the trip from kalamazoo to try it out probably about 5 times or so until school starts back up. Also,any PLO there and any word on when the WPT sats start up?

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

I hear they're getting in 43 hands/hour of OMAHA on the e-tables! Damn

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

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Anybody heading down there anytime this August? I'll be taking the trip from kalamazoo to try it out probably about 5 times or so until school starts back up. Also,any PLO there and any word on when the WPT sats start up?

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Tier 1 qualifying tournaments are available 24 hours a day for $50. $500 in starting chips. These are sats to:

Tier 2 $450 buy in tournament for a $25,000 seat in the World Poker Championship. $5,000 in starting chips. Held the last Saturday of every month at 12:00 pm.

I should note I have been signed up for a $50 sat since the casino opened and haven't had one go off yet. Close, but no cigar. I think as things settle down and the end of the month approaches they will be much more active.

Haven't seen any PLO, but if you can get 10 players, they can deal it (as it were).

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Will a WPT event actually be there?? Will it be played on e-tables ;-)?

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

But personally, if I suspect true colluding, not the occasional slip of the tongue from an over excited toolshed, I don't expect the dealer to catch that.



And we never got in any 60 hands an hour. I would say we averaged 35 hands an hour at 1/2 NL. The best I saw was when at the 1$10-20 limit table we probably got in 45 or 50 hands an hour.


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Most dealers do nothing about suspected collusion. Most they would do is call the floor after a complaint from a player. If a dealer doesn't like you, s/he will let you get busted by a Predator creature sitting at the table..."Oh, I didn't notice..."

Hands per hour? An accurate computation of hands per hour from etables would require some type of cumulative time span evaluation.

Re: Four Winds Casino…..I was there
 

Hands per hour? An accurate computation of hands per hour from etables would require some type of cumulative time span evaluation.

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Yes, I must confess it was mostly counting the hands for 15 minutes and multiplying by four.

28 entrants in tonights $50 midnight tournament.