Misplayed on every street?
 

I've been having nightmares about this hand since Friday. You guys can create a poll if you want to debate which street is more horrific.

Backdrop: I'd just had a rush of premium starting hands, so I'd been raising a lot PF, which, in a game like the Commerce 20, calls attention to itself.

So I get 88 UTG and open-limp this time. Pots have been super-multiway, so I wasn't too worried.

Of course it gets folded to MP2 who raises, button cold-calls, BB calls.

Flop is 655. Checked to me and I donk. MP2 raises, button folds, BB cold-calls. (Quick reads: both are total unknowns; weekend tourists I've never seen before, been playing with them less than 30 minutes). I call.

Turn is 9. BB now donks. I call. MP2 calls.

River is a 4. BB now checks. I check. MP2 quickly bets, BB quickly calls... so I fold.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

I think its fine honestly.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

you are allowed one of this per session.
so you can beat a bluff and a 6x and 77???

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

You're up against a 5 like 90% and 87 10% of the time here when he leads that turn. That's the uber fish ILL DISGUISE MY HAND BY JUST CALLING line.

So you could fold the river UI pretty comfortably here.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

think we shed MP2 on the turn with the raise ? It's pretty result oriented, but raising the turn can we interesting with 6 outs to the winner, a shot at a free showntown, and the chance to knock out MP2's better hand.

But to be honest the first time I read it, I couldn't find a lot of places I would have done something differently.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

[ QUOTE ]
think we shed MP2 on the turn with the raise ? It's pretty result oriented, but raising the turn can we interesting with 6 outs to the winner, a shot at a free showntown, and the chance to knock out MP2's better hand.

But to be honest the first time I read it, I couldn't find a lot of places I would have done something differently.

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Pretty sure raising turn is bad. Too much action went in on flop. When he bets turn he is going to showdown and with nothing less than a 9.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

I think not 3-betting the flop is the biggest mistake. You really need to find out whether MP has an overpair, whether people have a 5 and you have to charge the people who are drawing esp. because you have some of their outs.

As played, I think the rest of the hand is fine, though I'm tempted to b/f the river. On the river, all you beat is an overcards bluff by MP2 and 76/86/FDand6 combo by BB. It happens some of the time, but the pot is relatively small because of the way you played this hand preflop/flop, so I doubt this situation occurs 1/12 times. If it does, it's close. If this did happen, deal with with PJ. Tanya says you fume alot when you make bad decisions. Learn to become tiltless.

I think one thing I'm starting to pick up is that turn donks followed by river checks almost often mean a combo hand that improved on the turn. Obviously, this could be either 9x or 6x with x being 7 or 8, which means there's no gurantee that you are still not ahead.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

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You're up against a 5 like 90% and 87 10% of the time here when he leads that turn. That's the uber fish ILL DISGUISE MY HAND BY JUST CALLING line.

So you could fold the river UI pretty comfortably here.

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This is wrong. Combo hands and 9's do this a large amount of time too. I don't know what 20/40 games you've been playing.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

I am actually surprised that no one is having any issue with open limping with 88 even UTG.

I would've raised on turn trying to knock MP2 out and trying to get a free showdown. As played, folding river is fine, but I usually pay off, since that's what I do.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

I think you're being way too hard on yourself. This sort of thing happens all the time. Maybe you're good, maybe not, maybe this and that on the flop. You're not sure if the 7 is good or not if it comes on the river but you've got to call the turn.

It's just another hand of poker. I think you played it ok. Take it easy.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am actually surprised that no one is having any issue with open limping with 88 even UTG.

I would've raised on turn trying to knock MP2 out and trying to get a free showdown. As played, folding river is fine, but I usually pay off, since that's what I do.

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Limping 88 is a good choice and maybe even standard UTG given the description of the game.

Also, raising the turn is HORRIBLE when we get 3-bet and happens alot on this board when BB has a 5, 87, 99/66 or when MP has 99, because we need to call for our ~6 outs.

Edit: He has these holdings ALOT because of his flop CC and the board texture.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

I think PF and River are correct so you didn't misplay every street. I usually check-raise / lead the turn here.

3-betting the flop is a good option depending on reads at the time.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

sometimes in these spots i will bet the flop, as you did, assuming my eights are good, but fold to MP2's raise unless i had other information, giving him credit for a better pair. I'll forfeit my bet and a half here with a hand that even if best at the moment, is very vulnerable. prudent or weak?

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

without any good reads i overcall here. its a mighty big pot and you can still hope theyre total idiots.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

given your image I would bullet 3 bet the flop

given that you didn't I would bullet raise the turn

given that you didn't I would seriously consider overcalling the river but its close

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

The river fold is correct. The pot is small enough. After thinking a bit, I put BB on 6-7 or 6-8 and MP on 10-10+. He called the turn fearing a straight and bet the river after BB checked. Preflop is also fine given your description of the game.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

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given your image I would bullet 3 bet the flop

given that you didn't I would bullet raise the turn

given that you didn't I would seriously consider overcalling the river but its close

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You're a macho, macho man, I see, and I am a sissy.

Anyway, he doesn't have much of an image against these guys since he says he's only got ~30 minutes in the game w/ them.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

It's OK to get bluffed once in a while.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been having nightmares about this hand since Friday. You guys can create a poll if you want to debate which street is more horrific.

Backdrop: I'd just had a rush of premium starting hands, so I'd been raising a lot PF, which, in a game like the Commerce 20, calls attention to itself.

So I get 88 UTG and open-limp this time. Pots have been super-multiway, so I wasn't too worried.

Of course it gets folded to MP2 who raises, button cold-calls, BB calls.

Flop is 655. Checked to me and I donk. MP2 raises, button folds, BB cold-calls. (Quick reads: both are total unknowns; weekend tourists I've never seen before, been playing with them less than 30 minutes). I call.

Turn is 9. BB now donks. I call. MP2 calls.

River is a 4. BB now checks. I check. MP2 quickly bets, BB quickly calls... so I fold.

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Maybe I'm as blind as you. I like your play on every street. On the flop I like your bet because you feel there is a good chance the pre-flop raiser will raise you and make it heads up.

Okay, that doesn't work. BB calls. BB donks the turn, but now you have a straight draw in addition to your other outs. You have to call.

River. No way you can expect to be good in a multi-way pot given the action to this point. I like the fold rather than an overcall.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am actually surprised that no one is having any issue with open limping with 88 even UTG.

I would've raised on turn trying to knock MP2 out and trying to get a free showdown. As played, folding river is fine, but I usually pay off, since that's what I do.

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Most of the time I like the raise, but not in the case he described. He's been getting lots of good starting hands and has been raising with great frequency lately. With 88 there are two types of pots you want: heads up or as many players as possible. With his recent raising frequency even the UTG raise will get less respect and is unlikely to fold out most of the field. So limping in and hoping to get good set odds is a good alternative here.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

I was with you until the river, but I would have called.

When BB checks the river I think it's very likely you have him beat (maybe 67 or something), so I don't think you should let overcalling bother you. MP2 didn't raise the turn, which could mean an overpair that's scared of a 5 or a straight, but could also mean AK or something that's hoping for a nice river.

It depends on what types of players they are of course, but against unknowns (read: probably not very good) I would make this call, especially given the fact that MP2 bet "quickly" on the river.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

I don't think you misplayed any street. Instead, you misplayed the title of this post.

If you'd have called it "Tough spots with 88" or "Standard?" or something, everyone wouldn't be telling you "oh yeah, you definitely misplayed".

I think you played it fine. I raise PF 90% of the time, but not always; I raise/call the turn 20% of time; and call the river 25% of the time, but I honestly think it's fine as played. I definitely like the flop donk.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you misplayed any street. Instead, you misplayed the title of this post.

If you'd have called it "Tough spots with 88" or "Standard?" or something, everyone wouldn't be telling you "oh yeah, you definitely misplayed".

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LOL at this. Yep, all of MSLHE has a case of Oppositional Identity.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

I'd raise the turn rather quickly here. Rest looks fine, honestly.

Rob

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

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Backdrop: I'd just had a rush of premium starting hands, so I'd been raising a lot PF, which, in a game like the Commerce 20, calls attention to itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am actually surprised that no one is having any issue with open limping with 88 even UTG.

I would've raised on turn trying to knock MP2 out and trying to get a free showdown. As played, folding river is fine, but I usually pay off, since that's what I do.

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Most of the time I like the raise, but not in the case he described. He's been getting lots of good starting hands and has been raising with great frequency lately. With 88 there are two types of pots you want: heads up or as many players as possible. With his recent raising frequency even the UTG raise will get less respect and is unlikely to fold out most of the field. So limping in and hoping to get good set odds is a good alternative here.

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So what's usually consider as high frequency of raising? 2/orbit 3/orbit? Maybe I am in the minority here, hence I am stuck at poker lately, but I would usually limp for set value in LP, not UTG. Also, if I recall correctly, this is probably the 2nd orbit that Joker played on this table, I didn't think he was raising light or excessive.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

3-bet the flop.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

i really think you can fold the turn.

Re: Misplayed on every street?
 

3-bet flop otherwise seems pretty good.