River decision in a big pot
 

15-30 live full ring game, table is playing a little tighter than normal, 3-4 to flop on average, more TAG's than donkeys for a change

3 limpers, hero raises AJo on the button, blinds call, limpers call

6 players to flop for 12sb: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

everybody checks, hero checks behind

6 players to turn for 12sb: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

checked to a TAG in MP who bets, asian guy to my right calls, hero raises, folded to MP who calls, asian guy calls also

3 players to river for 12bb: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

TAG in MP checks, asian guy bets

hero... calls/folds?

no big reads on asian guy, he just sat down a couple orbits before, seems to be playing too loose pre flop, did see him make a river check/raise bluff with ace high that failed (river had paired the king on the flop which he obv tried to rep, but opponent held AK and opted to just call bc he was afraid the asian guy had a fh)

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

you are getting 13:1 and since you don't have a read on the guy, you need to look him up and see wtf he was playing.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

Insta call and expect to lose.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

not sure how much i like the raise pre flop. if 4 people are routinely seeing the flop, A-J doesn't play very well.

i'm sure a lot of people are gonna disagree with this. i like a raise to try and make the blinds fold but with all the limpers in front of you, the amount of money in the pot makes it to enticing for everyone to call.

i think i just call pre flop hoping to flop big because it looks like you are going to have to take A-J against half the table.

out of curiosity, where was this at?

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

I'll preface this by saying that AJo and ATo are my least favorite hands to play against 3-5 limpers, even with position. And I'll tell you that I would "usually" raise OTB with the slight hope of folding one or both blinds. (Exception being if the table's ATC and almost always has 6 or 7 to the flop, then I sometimes flat call). But, the "best laid plans" usually don't work out- as they didn't in this hand for you. FWIW, I would have made the c-bet on the flop, tho. Any reason you didn't?

The way played, I'd call river and expect to lose. Only other option would be to raise river, but that seems spewy in the somewhat protected pot and asian guy's turn call.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

2 limpers, this is a definite raise, 3 its closer. It also depends on how the blinds play.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
2 limpers, this is a definite raise, 3 its closer. It also depends on how the blinds play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, HEPFAP recomends a fold in MP after 1 limper, if you expect a couple more after you. This is only marginally better, as in multiway pots position becomes less important.
As played call and expect to lose. "You can't make money in limit hold'em by making huge laydowns on the river".

Flop check is correct IMO -- you're unlikely to win u/i, the majority will call the flop, and you don't want to make the pot big giving them proper odds whem drawing to 1 pair yourself.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

Actually, HEFAP, pg 29, says:

"It may also be correct to raise {first in or with callers to your right} with Group 4 hands AJ or KQ. The time to do so is when you think it is likely that your raise will:
1. Knock out most (if not all) of the players behind you.
2. Keep the pot short-handed."

Granted that these conditions don't necessarily apply after 3 limpers, but I did want to "clarify" what HEFAP had to say about AJ in MP.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

I think a raise is automatic on the button. Noone raised this hand, you are likely to have the best hand and have equity on the raise. I don't care if AJo is not best to play against 5 players, it's still well above 17% to go 6-handed.

In addition, you will probably get checked to if you miss the flop.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, HEFAP, pg 29, says:

"It may also be correct to raise {first in or with callers to your right} with Group 4 hands AJ or KQ. The time to do so is when you think it is likely that your raise will:
1. Knock out most (if not all) of the players behind you.
2. Keep the pot short-handed."

Granted that these conditions don't necessarily apply after 3 limpers, but I did want to "clarify" what HEFAP had to say about AJ in MP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I refer you to p 162. There is a big difference b/w open-raising trying to steal the blinds and/or play against few people with random hands, AND playing AJo in multiway pot.
A lot of stuff in HEPFAP is contradictory, you have to take it very situation specific.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

I fear we may be distracting from OP's point with a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" argument. You are correct in that HEFAP (pg 162) says to fold AJo after an UTG limp with players to act behind you. But, that's not OP's situation. He's got AJo after 3 limpers and the BTN. Furthermore, pg 161 of HEFAP says that if you're holding AQo OTB (admittedly not AJo- but close enuf for government work) and the flop comes T62(r) and it's checked to you, "You should bet virtually every time." That's why I don't get your flop check with respect to OP's post.

BTW: I agree that HEFAP is simply chalked-full of contradictory/bad advice.

EDIT: With respect to my original AJo/HEFAPs post, I was referring to what the author's said to do with the hand in MP, with or without limpers, and not in a blind steal situation.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fear we may be distracting from OP's point with a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" argument. You are correct in that HEFAP (pg 162) says to fold AJo after an UTG limp with players to act behind you. But, that's not OP's situation. He's got AJo after 3 limpers and the BTN. Furthermore, pg 161 of HEFAP says that if you're holding AQo OTB (admittedly not AJo- but close enuf for government work) and the flop comes T62(r) and it's checked to you, "You should bet virtually every time." That's why I don't get your flop check with respect to OP's post.

BTW: I agree that HEFAP is simply chalked-full of contradictory/bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that is is chalked-full of bad advice. The games we play in now are playing differently then the games were played when this was written. BTW, when this AQo "bet virtually everytime" comment was written the situation was also different. He recommended and had overlimped AQo which is actually reasonable but highly controversial in todays games.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

I was thinking the traditional situation where you are is reaosnably late position, th elimpers are weak and limp with a wide variety of hands (87, QJ, etc.) and the raise will likely eliminate all players behind you and give you position for the rest of the hand.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

Also, HEFAP assumes that the UTG player is playing Group 1 or 2 hands which just isn't the case most of the time.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

hefap is garbage

I raise this up all day your equity & domination crushes your opponents ranges.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fear we may be distracting from OP's point with a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" argument. You are correct in that HEFAP (pg 162) says to fold AJo after an UTG limp with players to act behind you. But, that's not OP's situation. He's got AJo after 3 limpers and the BTN. Furthermore, pg 161 of HEFAP says that if you're holding AQo OTB (admittedly not AJo- but close enuf for government work) and the flop comes T62(r) and it's checked to you, "You should bet virtually every time." That's why I don't get your flop check with respect to OP's post.

BTW: I agree that HEFAP is simply chalked-full of contradictory/bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that I would go so far as to say that is is chalked-full of bad advice. The games we play in now are playing differently then the games were played when this was written. BTW, when this AQo "bet virtually everytime" comment was written the situation was also different. He recommended and had overlimped AQo which is actually reasonable but highly controversial in todays games.

[/ QUOTE ]
My esteemed collegue is spot-on. (Not that I'm surprised, btw.) I should have stated that is is chalked-full of "controversial" advice, given today's games.

And that, my friend, is why I need for you to coach me!

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

dammit, I knew this was gonna happen and wanted to add a comment in my OP that I didn't want to get into a pre flop discussion, but obv I forgot bc I was running short in time

it's cool either way, raising or limping, it doesn't really matter imo, it's a preference thing and I like rraising so that's what I do

now, let us redirect the discussion to the river decision, which is why I posted the hand

if you guys want to get into the raise or call AJo otb discussion, plz open up a new thread

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

the river decision is not close at all, big pot don't fold.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

plz tell me why it's not "not close at all"

as is, your comment is empty

if I were to call every time on the river when the pot is >10bb I'd suck at pkr

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

lol

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
plz tell me why it's not "not close at all"

as is, your comment is empty

if I were to call every time on the river when the pot is >10bb I'd suck at pkr

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
no big reads on asian guy, he just sat down a couple orbits before, seems to be playing too loose pre flop, did see him make a river check/raise bluff with ace high that failed

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

I think I can answer this one by just reading the subject and not even reading the hand. Call.

-ActionBob

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
if I were to call every time on the river when the pot is >10bb I'd suck at pkr

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, I really suck at this game.

-ActionBob

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
plz tell me why it's not "not close at all"

as is, your comment is empty

if I were to call every time on the river when the pot is >10bb I'd suck at pkr

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
no big reads on asian guy, he just sat down a couple orbits before, seems to be playing too loose pre flop, did see him make a river check/raise bluff with ace high that failed

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, now we're getting somewhere

when you know someone is capable of bluffing, you have an <u>easy</u> call when the pot is bigg?

(I'm saying easy bc you quoted my reply to Vehn's post)

this is easy and not close?

I thought and still think this is def not easy and not at all "not close"

if it were HU with me and villain somehow I would agree this should be a call

but we have a third player in as well and it would def take some cohones for villain to bluff in this spot after given action

let me give it a slight twist: the hand where villain bluff c/raised river actually happened after this hand, not knowing villain is capable of bluffing like that, is it still "not close"?

Re: River decision in a big pot *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by The DaveR

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

I shouldn't have added the asian part, asians over here are not the same as you might know em (from what I've read on 2+2)

and I don't get the "I didn't bother to read what you wrote" bc obv you read some of it for you to be able to reply and quote a part of it AND if you state that you don't give an isht about what I wrote, why even bother posting at all?

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I shouldn't have added the asian part, asians over here are not the same as you might know em (from what I've read on 2+2)

and I don't get the "I didn't bother to read what you wrote" bc obv you read some of it for you to be able to reply and quote a part of it AND if you state that you don't give an isht about what I wrote, why even bother posting at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

Boredom. But point taken. I'll bow out.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2 limpers, this is a definite raise, 3 its closer. It also depends on how the blinds play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, HEPFAP recomends a fold in MP after 1 limper, if you expect a couple more after you. This is only marginally better, as in multiway pots position becomes less important.
As played call and expect to lose. "You can't make money in limit hold'em by making huge laydowns on the river".

Flop check is correct IMO -- you're unlikely to win u/i, the majority will call the flop, and you don't want to make the pot big giving them proper odds whem drawing to 1 pair yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

HFAP was written for a different time and a different game texture. Raising here preflop is a must in almost all live games.

Call the river and hate it.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

I fold this all the time in my games, but the games I play in are very passive FWIW.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

Short answer: Call (most of the time)

Long answer: You should call (most of the time) if you think there is a non-zero chance of him bluffing. If there's a 0% chance of him bluffing, your EV of calling is -1.0 BB. If there's a 10% chance of him bluffing, your EV of calling is 0.4 BB. The "breakeven" point is around 7% (game theory).

The fact that you saw him make a river bluff means that there's a non-zero chance of him bluffing. In my experience, people are very bad at doing a particular action a really small % of the time...therefore, if anything he's bluffing more frequently than 7% rather than less frequently. Also, if you occasionally fold in this situation, your opponent will believe river bluffs are profitable. Even if he works out that bluffing 7% is correct, he will probably do it more frequently.

For example, I tell myself that I should raise UTG "infrequently" with 87s (in a full ring game), say 5-10% of the time. In reality, I probably do it way more than I intend to.

Finally, in this situation, standard psychology says he is less likely to do a river bluff since he just did one (that failed). Reverse psychology says he is more likely to do a river bluff since you will be expecting that he won't be doing two river bluffs in a row.

Hmmm...I like my short answer better.

Re: River decision in a big pot
 

"You can't make money in limit hold'em by making huge laydowns on the river"

Gold