Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

No reads, i do have stats on him though: 18/12/5

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $61.97
BB: $152.05
UTG: $51.25
CO: $49.25
Hero (BTN): $104.22

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.00</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">BB raises to $6.25</font>, Hero calls $4.25

Flop: ($12.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $9.00</font>, Hero calls $9.00

Turn: ($30.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $20.25</font>, Hero calls $20.25

River: ($71.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $32.50</font>

also comments about how i ve played the rest of the hand are appreciated.....

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

what do u beat ... a bluff ... dump this hand when he throws that 2nd barrel at your head

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

I guess I fold on turn here. not exactly sure. But if you havent seen him 3bet pf before id muck:/

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Ya, I think I fold the turn.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

is folding the turn not too weak??? i was thinking about it actually, but the spade flushdraw made me call that turn, since villain could be double barreling a hand like ak-a10ss and kqss.....

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Fold the turn.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
is folding the turn not too weak??? i was thinking about it actually, but the spade flushdraw made me call that turn, since villain could be double barreling a hand like ak-a10ss and kqss.....

[/ QUOTE ]

o rly?

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

no its not to weak...

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

is raising the flop a spew?

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
is raising the flop a spew?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i think so, because you dont have to protect your hand against draws, and you let worser hands fold and better ones will call/raise you..........

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

fold preflop

fold turn

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

fold preflop from the button with aq? i know he got reraised but most villans can do that with a much wider range than aa,ak, or kk

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Raise the flop to $26 or so,

then re-evaluate.

Dont call the flop, it gives you no information, and definatly dont call the turn as played above.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

everyone wants to fold after hitting the Q.. then obviously it's better to fold preflop.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

you get 3 bet by an 18/12 with aqo - just fold it pre!

as played fold turn.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Fold turn , AA KK with this kind of betting or trips

Although reading down i do agree with the preflop fold to that raise

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

i don't get this fold PRE? he can easily be making a play back at you with a variety of hands, as your raising from the BUTTON... a position savy player realizes this and plays back-- if you don't reraise flop then you'll never know where you are, and when you play weak you get bullied-- i really really like raising the flop and reevaluating turn, postflop play needs some work but i strongly disagree with folding preflop with position with aq

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

What's could the Villain's 3-betting range be? Any ideas? If you've only seen him re-raise with AK, AA-QQ, I'd fold preflop.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Instafold preflop.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Why corsakh? do people at 50nl not understand position enough to try and play back at a button raiser? i guess it'd be better to know how many times you've raised from the button and so on... i don't understand an instafold from the button with aq, you can easily raise it up when hitting the flop and see where your at

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Fold preflop depending on his 3betting range.. If you call you gotta raise the flop to slow him down and get info.. You basicly only beat JJ here if hes tight.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

I doubt he's firing 3 bullets with air here especially on the turn/river with a 5 and 7, but his AF is 5 so who knows.

The obvious line is to raise the flop to 30. If he pushes, you fold.

You raise the flop to take the betting lead. By calling you're just spewing chips.

edit: There's no way I'm folding AQ IP to a 3bet from an aggressive player. His range is still pretty wide probably any pair, aj+, and suited connectors.

I would be more inclined to fold to a 3bet if we were UTG. here.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

UTG is a much different story, and i completely agree-- this form just keeps saying instafold preflop but his range is so large vs a button raiser, and noone was disagreeing-- you have to raise this flop to a)slow him down b) see where your at, i can find a fold on the turn vs. a large 2nd barrel, since with your position, hes unlikely to lead again into you if he doesn't have pockets better than queens

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

if im in the blinds and the btn raises, im going to reraise with a very wide range of hands.

would call PF with AQ, raise flop, fold to a push. Unless he has AA or KK u probably have him beat and the 3bet PF is not enough evidence to fold on flop.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Reraising with dominated hands against a loose range may be EV+. Calling never is. Its just fundamentally bad poker. Like calling with SC OOP or openlimping. If you call with AQ here, you should call with AJ and KQ since its essentially the same thing and all of them have loosing equity against TT+, AJ+. The RIO makes things really ugly, like in this thread. We hit one of the best flops - and where are we? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] If you think he's 3betting light - feel free to 4bet. I rather do it with a different hand of course, but its still better than calling. This is pretty much one of the few cases where I think "raising for information" may be a little justified and actually save you a lot of money.

I dont know, I may be a little biased on this topic. But I remembered from the first card runners videos to always insta muck AQ to a 3bet and never reraise EP with AJ AQ or anyting else dominated. Almost every time I went against this I found myself in a lot of trouble and usually lost the pot.

If you watch Taylor or Andrew play both in 100NL and 1000NL, without history, they just muck AQ to a 3bet like its 72o. And I still remember Taylor being shocked by some guys agressive reraise with AJs from the blinds to Taylors EP opening in 400NL. He said something like "Ok, this table seems pretty solid. Except for the guy who raised me with AJ. This is just atrocious." I think its the worst critique I ever heard from him in all the videos - he usually does not go any further than saying "the player is not so good".

And the second most important thing I learned from CR, other than position, is to pick your flop and preflop spots carefully. The reason GP was so good - not just because he understands the game better than anyone or is a great hand reader. I think one of the main things is because he is phenomenally good at staying out of trouble. If there is any chance that he may be in a bad position on the flop - be it position wise, range wise, agression wise or something else - he just lets it go. He does not take chances unless he has a good read and a good plan. How may people you know limp/fold AQ from the blinds? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

If you feel he is savvy enough to realise you're raising light from the button and thus 3-betting light, I prefer a 4-bet preflop to a call.
If he shoves we can easily muck being 200 BB deep.

As played, I like a raise on the flop too. We're deep enough here that we can fold to a shove, if he calls we proceed with extreme caution.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Is it just me or does the river scream value bet?

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

[ QUOTE ]
Taylor being shocked by some guys agressive reraise with AJs from the blinds to Taylors EP opening in 400NL. He said something like "Ok, this table seems pretty solid. Except for the guy who raised me with AJ. This is just atrocious." I think its the worst critique I ever heard from him in all the videos - he usually does not go any further than saying "the player is not so good".

[/ QUOTE ]

further explanation pleasse... im confused by this

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Your confused by who Taylor is and why I am talking about him or by the situation itself?

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

situation itself... why do you think it was the worst critique?

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

i just think some villans could make strong moves against a opening button raiser from the blinds with pocket pairs, aj+, lots of things, if your good at post flop play which would be to raise that flop and then be able to get away from your hand, unless your talking about the calling on the flop and not PREFLOP-- then we're in totally different situations

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Taylor's range OTB is often ATC, but UTG its pretty much more or less 88+ and AJ+. So he opens from EP with some premium, dont remember what - AK or QQ, someting like that. Everyone folds, SB 3bets with AJs and Taylor calls. SB catches TP on the flop, but is dominated and proceeds loosing a good part of his stack. When SB shows AJ, Taylor sounds like wtf and later calls the play terrible or atrocious or something similar. Before this instance, I never heard him speak badly of anyone's play. The worst I heard was probably "not so good" or "a donator".

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

Your right, but if GP does not think he is good enough to justify these plays at small stakes, I certainly don't think I am [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Like I remember a nice passage I think by muddy water.

You should only play a hand when you think you have an edge over your opponent. An edge may be coming from position, hole cards, aggression, or poker skill. Use the combination of those to take advantage of your opponent. But if you think that poker skill alone can make you money, think again.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

i gotcha now, i completely agree, btw heres one last donk question whose GP?

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

GreenPlastic = Taylor Caby

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

good points all around, thanks for enlightening me corsakh-- i just wanted hellmuth (started post) to know that i'd drop down to NL 25 and start working on postflop play, this AQ IMO is not a fold preflop, but you have to raise the flop to see where your at

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

raising the flop here is HORRIBLE. Why on earth would you ever want to make the pot bigger with such a marginal hand?

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

For me this is read dependent. If I think he's restealing then I call PF and then raise the flop to see if he can beat my TPTK. If it's out of the blue then I probably fold given his tight PFR range. 18/12/5 is pretty tight but doesn't preclude resteals and AF=5 is agro which makes his strong betting in this hand potentially less of a worry. If he was restealing then he had no choice but to CB. If he's that agro / caught a draw then the 2nd barrel is likely. Once he's got to the river, is he really going to just check with a bluff?

I realise that raising the flop probably only folds worse hands and that "betting for info" is frowned upon but if that info reduces RIO losses then it is a price worth paying. I think calling two large bets like this is much more expensive.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

grunch: I'd call just because of the dudes betsizing. If he's a halfway decent tag no way does he not have a ~PSB left on the river and have a good hand. Hopefully he was repopping u fairly often pre for ur preflop call to be good.

edit: I realize now they are mined stats and u didn't have the preflop read he was repopping light. Yeah fold pre looks good. Turn is a pretty thin call too considering he doesn't rr very often and probably isn't very bluffy.

Re: Am i a donkey to even consider calling the river????????
 

preflop: 4betting 20% here, calling 30% folding 50%

flop: I'm re-raising here always to find out where I stand, if he shoves.... then meh, but im never calling

turn: as played I think you have to fold, which really sucks

river: is he ever triple barrel bluffing here? I mean most aren't really very capable of this at 50nl. especially the 18/12/5 type.