PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

How would you play the following hand against an unknown opponent?

Party Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $97.55
UTG+1: $112.45
UTG+2: $76.06
MP1: $47.45
Hero: $133.20
MP3: $24
CO: $80.69
Button: $69.67
SB: $112.93
BB: $36.42

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $7.5</font>, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($23, 3 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $8</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $45.85</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises all-in $96.95</font>, Hero calls.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

The converter says its PLO not PLO8. Is this in the right forum?

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

PLO8, as stated in the subject.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

Fold flop unless you believe he is on a pure bluff.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

Fold the flop. You have nothing in a three handed pot with lots of money left to bet. Give up and go to the next hand.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

NOTE TO EVERYONE: YES THE CONVERTER WILL ALWAYS SAY OMAHA HI.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

i think u need to pitch this u put in way too big of a raise and i dont like it. i think i would pitch this when i meet resistence on the flop

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

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i think u need to pitch this u put in way too big of a raise and i dont like it. i think i would pitch this when i meet resistence on the flop

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By no means I will fold to villain's first 1/3 pot bet. Should I raise to 30bb and give up when he goes all-in?

I could also simply call villain's flop bet and if he checks the turn I could pot the turn myself.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

i dont think i would have raised the amount u did. the small bet he made screams either 1. hes questionable about his hand..or 2. hes trying to get u to take the rope

i call the 8 bet on flop then re evaluate on the turn. i think the raise may have been too big, just enough to make us have to go all in. but i think we could have avoided gettin it all in with this hand w/o a better spot

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

I disagree completely with what is stated above. Would UTG+1 play a2 of spades any differently? He min raises preflop which more than likely means he has a2. He puts Hero on AA because of the reraise preflop, so he figures he can semi bluff and push Hero off his hand.
This hand is 50 50 to me. If I know this player to be a nut peddler, easy fold. But if I think this player has any aggressive tendencies at all, I push.
By folding here, you are conceding folding aces to anyone. Any paired board, someone raises you and you fold. This is classic weak tight in PLO8.
When I play, if I see someone how has obvious aces, I will push this board a high percentage of the time, ESPECIALLY, which A2 spades on a semi bluff. I call this a high percentage of the time.
You very rarely will be beat by the high and low.
Final read: player has Aspades 23 x.
Easy push.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

jesus what the hell are you doing, this isn't holdem, AA usually isn't the nuts

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

I need to elaborate a little more on my last point. By rerasing preflpp, the whole table knows you have aces. Aces are a very vulnerable hand, and everyone in O8 knows that, so people play them scared. By folding here, you let everyone know that you will fold aces to any raise.

The chance that he has a seven is small. You have 4 cards, and there are 3 cards in the flop making 7 known cards. So there are unknown cards, and 2 people in the hand. So what is the chance that out of 8 cards (the two player's 4 cards hands), one will be a seven? It is way under 50 percent, so the chance he has a 7 is not great.

Also, he knows 2 of your cards (AA). So that means you have 2 cards that could be a 7, making it EXTREMELY unlikely that you have one.

Basically, he knows much more information about your hand then you do about his. He knows if he pushes here (especially if has seen you lay down this hand before), that you are very likely to fold.

He can push here with a23, a2 spades, or any a2 with counterfeit protection.

If you are going to play aces like this, you should just fold them preflop and save yourself the two raises, because you will fold to any contest. You can't put yourself in this position to call away all your chips.

In this situation, once you raise to 40 you have to call his all in. But what you should have done is this...

Solution: At a table where your reraise won't get anyone to fold, don't bother raising preflop. You give away information without getting any.


Call his 8 dollar bet. If a blank comes on turn (high non spade)and he fires again, give him credit for the 7. If he checks, I bet pot putting him on A2 spades. It gets much more tricky if a low card comes. More than likely, he will fire again so I just check call down unless a spade or 4 comes out and then I definitely fold.

The chance that is has a 7 is low but the chance that he has a2 or a3 7 is extremely low. If he beats me to the high and low, then thats O8 for you but it is very unlikely.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

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Solution: At a table where your reraise won't get anyone to fold, don't bother raising preflop. You give away information without getting any.

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The rest of your post is somewhat cogent, but this is terrible advice. He has aces, a wheel card, and a nut flush draw. Bang this hand pre-flop every time.

The basis of the "problem" you've identified exists only if OP is known raiser pre-flop of AAxx hands only. Since OP is someone who has been around these parts for a while, I assume his pre-flop raises are not limited to AAxx, his adversaries would be incorrect to assume automatically that he has AA because he raised, and the notion that he has laid his hand open by raising pre-flop is incorrect.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

daboyz is this a gimmick account. i dont see why someone would join today and try to make such a strong point on this hand. i have a feeling Daboyz is OP trying to defend his action.

AA is a nice hand in plo8 but not even close to a lock. i completely agree with neverforgetlol, this hand is no where near the nuts. tons of hands have us beat and i pose the question that i usually do at this point. what hands push all in after the strength that we have shown that we beat?
- brief answer none unless someone is donkin stacks then this would have been noted in the original post.

i dont think this play can EVER be made without a strong read on a player and i dont think you have the reads to do this

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

This is all so bad I wanna puke.

Hero has 45% equity vs A23x spades
45% equity vs A345 no spades
38% equity vs A235 spades
and 10% equity vs A27x



Thats pretty much the range you might face + some bluffs but its very rare to catch someone bluffing on flop with 2 lows out there.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

Instead of anaylsing my critique, you just say it's wrong, which adds nothing to this post.

There is 23 dollars in the pot on the flop. UTG bets 8, so folding here would be -EV for Hero unless he puts UTG on A27, hence I say just call.

I disagreed with his flop raise, but once he raises to 45 and UTG comes over the top, the pot now is 160 and it costs Hero 50 to call. Again, unless he puts Hero on A2 7 it is -EV for him to fold.

Hilo is not a game of just figuring out when you are ahead and going all in. The most profitable is being able to know when you are behind so when you are given the right odds to catch up and you do, you get paid off.

Clearly this player made a mistake on this hand, which I stated in my post was his raise on the flop. Bigka and Borys, point out where in my post I am incorrect, rather than just throwing numbers and accusations out there.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

His raise on the flop was absolutely correct. Please stop saying that was his mistake. I am sure that anyone with any reasonable experience playing this game disagrees with you.

He hit what may have proven to be a crappy flop. Whether he played it correctly or not may be subject to debate but seems to be more player dependent than anything.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

What does the raise on the flop accomplish? It just opens the door for UTG to reraise.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

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This hand is 50 50 to me. If I know this player to be a nut peddler, easy fold. But if I think this player has any aggressive tendencies at all, I push.
By folding here, you are conceding folding aces to anyone. Any paired board, someone raises you and you fold. This is classic weak tight in PLO8.
When I play, if I see someone how has obvious aces, I will push this board a high percentage of the time, ESPECIALLY, which A2 spades on a semi bluff. I call this a high percentage of the time.
You very rarely will be beat by the high and low.
Final read: player has Aspades 23 x.
Easy push.

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First this is not a simple paired board but 776 which fits somehow into vast majority of so called solid hands.

Notice that you dont have the A of spades so quite likely he is in villians hand.

I have to agree that some tircky lagtards will try to make you fold AA, but none of them is so stupid to do it on 776 because if you have AA2x you will call him at lightning speed.

And your arguments sound a bit like you would treat poker as an ego thing and therefore you say no one makes me fold aces. Are you scared to look foolish when he shows his bluff?

And the numbers I gave are up to the point, because if you calculate the average equity vs such rabge it will be around 35-40%.

So if you shove you in bad shape bacause all bluffs fold and only the good hands that are either slightly ahead or have you crushed call.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

Uh, nothing really I guess except that it folded out four hands, which increased hero's chance of scooping a big (raised) pot, and gave hero position over everyone else that played.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

I'm curious what sort of hand you want to win with if you're reraising the flop then calling the pooosh. I guess you're looking for dealer's Ax or 7x? Maybe 23 (lol)? Regardless why not call and peel one off? Instead of just using math to figure the chances that a 7 is in either of those two hands, adjust the math by increasing the probability one is there because an unknown opponent should not be assumed to be brain dead until they provide evidence supporting the assumption. I would walk away from the admitted small bet on the flop against an unknown, with no info on how to interpret his action - granted that is probably notably tighter than the mean in this thread (AA = win small, lose big). I would assume I would need an A to win the pot, and assume only one is left out there, at most. That's at best a 1 outer to a sure thing, with some miraculous card combos in between (not many, mind you) that would leave me with a better than 50% chance of scooping, and who cares about drawing to the low except as some sort of justification for leaping in headlong?

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

How unknown? It looks like you have already won a decent pot.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

whoa,have you lost your mind,if the guy has a2 spades,he is a favorite over the aa,a flush and low draw is 55 percent ahead of a set,so it has to be the same odds or better against 2 pair.So your telling the guy to put him on a monster draw which is ahead of his 2 pair and put all his chips in,the correct play is not to even raise preflop with aa,just bc you are only raising around 4-5 percent of your stack,now if you could have made it 20-30 preflop,i would have made the same move with the re raise after flop but since he only raised 7 ,i would probbaly fold on the flop.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

WTF is going on here.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

There are some guys screaming I HAVE TOP TOP TOP.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

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WTF is going on here.

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I don't know. I will raise this hand preflop everytime and this is surely not a mistake because my preflop raising range is broad enough that nobody can put me exactly on AA.

I was just curious how anybody would play this hand postflop. I agree with you that this should depend on the aggressiveness of the opponent. Should I push most of the time against an aggro player and call against a passive or unknown player to see how he will act on the turn?

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

First, I think this hand was correctly raised pre-flop.

Second: On the flop you have positions and its a check and it is a 1/3 pot bet to you. This bet screams "great drawing hand" to me. I would expect the player to have an open straight and probably A2 or A3 low draw...and quite possibly a flush draw too. I would not make it out of the question that the player has a 7 either and is looking to induce a raise. There is NO way I put in a raise the size you did in that spot. First of all, you have no idea where you stand in the hand, and second of all, by raising that big, you effectively give up your position advantage. I would either flat call with your hand, or min-raise for information. I think you gave away your whole advantage in this hand the way you played it.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

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First, I think this hand was correctly raised pre-flop.

Second: On the flop you have positions and its a check and it is a 1/3 pot bet to you. This bet screams "great drawing hand" to me. I would expect the player to have an open straight and probably A2 or A3 low draw...and quite possibly a flush draw too. I would not make it out of the question that the player has a 7 either and is looking to induce a raise. There is NO way I put in a raise the size you did in that spot. First of all, you have no idea where you stand in the hand, and second of all, by raising that big, you effectively give up your position advantage. I would either flat call with your hand, or min-raise for information. I think you gave away your whole advantage in this hand the way you played it.

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Of course its correct to raise preflop, a flat call is also fine.

But on flop I think there is no way we can define our hand because he will move all in with hands inlcuding 7 and also with the big draws like A23spades.

You min-raise and he shoves then what?
Or you call and then un turn comes an ofsuit 3 and he fires again. Should we call, maybe he is freerolling us now or maybe has us crushed with A27x, you will never now.

There is no inbetween choice, you either fold right away or play for stacks.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

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I would either flat call with your hand, or min-raise for information. I think you gave away your whole advantage in this hand the way you played it.

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I have been thinking about the post-flop part of this hand for the last day, and am relieved to say that this is what I would have done as well. Of course, hindsight is 20-20 and oftentimes when I am confronted by a small bet under these circumstances my retard detector goes off and I pound it. Here though I am not so sure I would have done so, because I've learned that having an A-A-4 or A-A-5 on this kind of flop is crappucino.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

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First, I think this hand was correctly raised pre-flop.

Second: On the flop you have positions and its a check and it is a 1/3 pot bet to you. This bet screams "great drawing hand" to me. I would expect the player to have an open straight and probably A2 or A3 low draw...and quite possibly a flush draw too. I would not make it out of the question that the player has a 7 either and is looking to induce a raise. There is NO way I put in a raise the size you did in that spot. First of all, you have no idea where you stand in the hand, and second of all, by raising that big, you effectively give up your position advantage. I would either flat call with your hand, or min-raise for information. I think you gave away your whole advantage in this hand the way you played it.

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Of course its correct to raise preflop, a flat call is also fine.

But on flop I think there is no way we can define our hand because he will move all in with hands inlcuding 7 and also with the big draws like A23spades.

You min-raise and he shoves then what?
Or you call and then un turn comes an ofsuit 3 and he fires again. Should we call, maybe he is freerolling us now or maybe has us crushed with A27x, you will never now.

There is no inbetween choice, you either fold right away or play for stacks.

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That is why my first choice above was flat call, because if he re-pops my min-raise I probably must fold.

But I want to see what villian does if any card over 8 hits the board, or an A or a 2. Most of the holdings that don't include a 7 are much worse off if the turn comes with a high card, and would be making a mistake to bet the pot on the turn. I think almost half the cards that can come on the turn are cards that favor me in position-- and I would rather take that chance for $8 with the opportunity to fold in position if I don't like what I see.

If an offsuit 3 comes and he pots it I probably fold, but I have only lost $8.

Re: PLO8 $100: AA hand meets resistance on flop
 

But you min-raise hoping that he calls and checks the turn to you, as many players will. It's frequently worth the extra $8 to buy this privilege, and if he re-pops, so what? You fold. Big deal.