peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

i think hes a bit of a donk. ive been raising his button a bit and he hasnt played back yet and keeps calling pf and c/fing. early in a session though. i just felt like i was "due" to get played back at.

was gonna fold river ui, bad?


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $1,148.00
BB: $1,000.00
UTG: $757.00
MP: $1,458.75
CO: $1,475.00
Hero (BTN): $1,583.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $30.00</font>, SB calls $25.00, BB folds

Flop: ($70) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $50.00</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $150.00</font>, Hero calls $100.00

Turn: ($370) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $290.00</font>, Hero calls $290.00

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

The problem with "I felt like I was 'due' to get played back at" is that you really don't know if he really has a hand or he finally got one after c/f the other flops. So I really don't like it.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

If you call the c/r on the flop I like the turn call because I makes so little sense for a random donk to double barrel when the K hits (is he really calling your raise with K6/K7? or 67 oop?). If you think this guy is a donk and that he keeps c/fing I don't think he is the type of individual with value bet A7 relatively thin.

I like a river fold (gross if you spike a 5 or 6 tho). In my experience random donks don't mind the c/r when it looks like you may be cbetting with air and then turn bet again when the "scare" overcard hits, but they won't follow through with the third barrel.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you call the c/r on the flop I like the turn call because I makes so little sense for a random donk to double barrel when the K hits (is he really calling your raise with K6/K7? or 67 oop?). If you think this guy is a donk and that he keeps c/fing I don't think he is the type of individual with value bet A7 relatively thin.

I like a river fold (gross if you spike a 5 or 6 tho). In my experience random donks don't mind the c/r when it looks like you may be cbetting with air and then turn bet again when the "scare" overcard hits, but they won't follow through with the third barrel.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are ignoring the fact he could have flop sets or 2 pairs here and thus is not scared of the king turn.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

yea but thats a pretty small range (esp considering i have a pair) which was why i peeled on the turn K.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you call the c/r on the flop I like the turn call because I makes so little sense for a random donk to double barrel when the K hits (is he really calling your raise with K6/K7? or 67 oop?). If you think this guy is a donk and that he keeps c/fing I don't think he is the type of individual with value bet A7 relatively thin.

I like a river fold (gross if you spike a 5 or 6 tho). In my experience random donks don't mind the c/r when it looks like you may be cbetting with air and then turn bet again when the "scare" overcard hits, but they won't follow through with the third barrel.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are ignoring the fact he could have flop sets or 2 pairs here and thus is not scared of the king turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, definitely. I am presuming that jfish would have made an extra note if the villain was enough of a donk to call from the sb with 62 or 72, so we can knock those two pairs out, and even then I do not know many people rushing to play 67 oop against an aggressive player. 22,66,77 are definite possibilities. Just in my experience a donk playing very passively is not the type to vb a7/88/99 (I presume he reraises 1010+ at least from a button raise?) thin - I think his range is made up much more of random crap deciding to bluff than set/67.

Honestly, I am still undecided whether I like the flop call or not... but if you call the flop this is a good turn to call as well and be happy about checking behind on the river if he checks to you.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

if I do this I'd raise the turn, or make a move on the river. The K is a perfect card to get him off 87 or whatever crap he has.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

i dont think he would bet a 7 here if hes bad, is that an unfair assumption?

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

Have you seen the type of hands he likes to call your PF raises with (ie a couple showdowns)? Or you can guess based on how often he does call. If it's like 40% of the time then it could be basically anytime he doesn't have a pure garbage hand. If so, his range could have 89, 76, A7s, K7s, 88, 99, set, total bluff with KT on flop gone luckbox, etc. Calling so much of your stack on the turn should only be done if he is going to play pretty straightforward on the river. If you are still left guessing as to whether or not he has a hand when he puts a big bet out on the river...

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

Agree with most of what was said although I don't think a re-pop on the flop is terrible by any means and I'd definitely throw it in there as an alternative line to take on occasion. The eff. stacks are probably just about big enough I guess. This would work well if you weren't regularly stealing his blind but if you think he was getting agitated and ready to donk off light, be done with the hand and find a better spot.

I think it comes down to whether you're happy to create a big pot on a read that he might be weak and just feeling like he needed to stand his ground for a change. As played, I don't love calling the flop. Well, as long as you've got a plan for the remaining streets, call. It's one of those hands where, if you're happy raising PF with it, but not willing to play a big pot with what is likely to be a marginal holding, which it is, why play it PF. To steal the blinds? Meh...

As above, I'd prefer a re-pop or a fold. I've experimented with the re-pop with hands/situations like this and you'll be surprised at the respect you get even when someone is getting frustrated.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

Another line I don't mind is a check behind on the flop

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

A lot of overcards can come to destroy that mediocre 1 pair hand, so I'm not sure I like the check the flop idea. It is better to check the flop with something like top pair of kings with a bad kicker.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

In my experience c/fing a few flops and then c/ring the 3-4th one is usually not playback. This means, OMG I FINALLY HIT A FLOP.

That said I do not mind your line b/c for some reason MSNL players think these are good boards to c/r on when they aren't repping any hands on bluffs. I fold flop most of the time.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

Yeah, but I feel at this stage hole cards are irrelevant. If he checks it to you for a second time on the turn, it's the oldest trick in the book to bet and represent a hand that that turn helped. It's easily +EV to bet at any turn when checked twice to you. And this is the perfect flop and turn to try this.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

the line by villain is almost always a bluff..... I give it little to no respect. The turn might have helped him, but if it did, sux for u.

Dealt to hero [3c 3s]
hero: raises $15 to $21
Caroline McD: folds
crzysavage: folds
jayster65: folds
moroucco: folds
farlzz: calls $15
*** FLOP *** [2c 7c 8s]
farlzz: checks
hero: bets $36
farlzz: raises $90 to $126
hero: calls $90
*** TURN *** [2c 7c 8s] [Kh]
farlzz: bets $180
hero: calls $180
*** RIVER *** [2c 7c 8s Kh] [4s]
farlzz: checks
hero: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
farlzz: shows [Js Ad] (high card Ace)
hero: shows [3c 3s] (a pair of Threes)
hero collected $654 from pot

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think he would bet a 7 here if hes bad, is that an unfair assumption?

[/ QUOTE ]

if he's baddish how else would he play A7?

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

id expect him to c/c turn.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

everytime i try to give a donk the ability to be thinking and try and outplay me without a hand (and call extremely light), i wish i had the money back after the hand is over.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

you know, i sometimes do this too.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

Are you gonna bet the river if checked to? I hate making this play, then a 9 comes on the river and he checks and takes it down with A9

I agree you should fold river since most donks dont have the balls to triple barrel here with complete air.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont think he would bet a 7 here if hes bad, is that an unfair assumption?

[/ QUOTE ]

So a good player would bet the turn with a 7?

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

some really obvious things would be - like you said, he generally won't bet a 7 here(some will though), and other than that he's gotta have slowplayed something pf, or have 22, 66, 77, 67 to have you beat. possibly could have turned a king but i feel like even that gets checked a lot for whatever reason.

more than anything else, this is such a feel thing, you know that though. sometimes you just kind of intuitively know to call turn/fold riv, sometimes you know to fold turn, and sometimes you know to call down...obviously being a winning player means you're usually right. sometimes other factors make one decision more clear than the other but i feel like posting this hand won't get you what you're looking for. maybe this is enough validation for doing whatever you did though.

some thoughts i have on when you feel like you are 'due' to get played back at are that sometimes you're just fooling yourself and are looking for false justification to call down in marginal spots because you've been beating up on a guy in a bunch of pots or have a bad image. sometimes of course though you are correct in doing so and are actually going to get played back at vs. some guys. it's really hard to comment on in isolation and there is a very fine line between the two imo.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
some really obvious things would be - like you said, he generally won't bet a 7 here(some will though), and other than that he's gotta have slowplayed something pf, or have 22, 66, 77, 67 to have you beat. possibly could have turned a king but i feel like even that gets checked a lot for whatever reason.

more than anything else, this is such a feel thing, you know that though. sometimes you just kind of intuitively know to call turn/fold riv, sometimes you know to fold turn, and sometimes you know to call down...obviously being a winning player means you're usually right. sometimes other factors make one decision more clear than the other but i feel like posting this hand won't get you what you're looking for. maybe this is enough validation for doing whatever you did though.

some thoughts i have on when you feel like you are 'due' to get played back at are that sometimes you're just fooling yourself and are looking for false justification to call down in marginal spots because you've been beating up on a guy in a bunch of pots or have a bad image. sometimes of course though you are correct in doing so and are actually going to get played back at vs. some guys. it's really hard to comment on in isolation and there is a very fine line between the two imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

really nice post. i called flop because of his small 3x c/r and turn because tons of hands slow down on the K. youre right though, this is a pretty big "feel" spot and there are tons of hands like this that i havent posted just because of this reason.

riv is standard, im sure.

River: ($950) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $520.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1,040.00</font>, SB calls all-in for $158.00

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

no offence, but this is pretty horrible imo. you are just gambling on him not having a hand. more often that not he will have a hand and you will lose more than you win.

i was going to write about how 'feel' hands are a lot of crap (imo), and that you should always use your brain rather than your gut instinct, but luckychewy put it so well i would only do a weaker job, in that:

[ QUOTE ]

some thoughts i have on when you feel like you are 'due' to get played back at are that sometimes you're just fooling yourself and are looking for false justification to call down in marginal spots because you've been beating up on a guy in a bunch of pots or have a bad image. sometimes of course though you are correct in doing so and are actually going to get played back at vs. some guys. it's really hard to comment on in isolation and there is a very fine line between the two imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

however, i disagree with the latter half, that you are correct in doing so. just becuase he was bluffing in a particular hand, obv as you know doesn't mean it was correct to call down, so in fact your bad play just got lucky, in that this time he actually had a bad hand. imo instead you should of reraised/folded, rather than calling down.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

why is rr/folding better than calling down on a board like this?

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

sorry a reraise is bad here, i just typed it at the end as i felt i should give a final comment on this hand specifically and a tv programme was starting so i just typed that and left to watch tv.

personally i usually fold here. but if i do peel, i certainly don't peel again. it defies the point of the first peel, if you then miss and he fires again, to then call again.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

i wouldnt have peeled on all turn cards, but i thought i had to on a K bc it kind of polarized his range.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

perfect time to check behind the flop.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

if u got a marginal hand and u feel u are due to get played back at, dont bet the flop.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

super standard jfish

callcalalcall

was referring to flop/turn

didnt see river, but ya thats standard too

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
perfect time to check behind the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] posts like this are so useless. sometimes you ch behind flop sometimes you bet it who cares. obviously you're not going to do one or the other 100% of the time in any given situation.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

ur missing the point. "due to get played back at" is pretty key here

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

For those that say this line is a bluff this is absolutely ludicrous. You realize this is how like 90% of people play a set right?

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

fgators, troll other threads.

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
perfect time to check behind the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] posts like this are so useless. sometimes you ch behind flop sometimes you bet it who cares. obviously you're not going to do one or the other 100% of the time in any given situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you think of the calldown?

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
ur missing the point. "due to get played back at" is pretty key here

[/ QUOTE ]
is wickle wuego afwaid to get pwayed back at?

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

oook that was random

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
super standard jfish

callcalalcall

was referring to flop/turn

didnt see river, but ya thats standard too

[/ QUOTE ]

great minds?

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
super standard jfish

callcalalcall

was referring to flop/turn

didnt see river, but ya thats standard too

[/ QUOTE ]
luckbox call stations think alike?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: peeling 2 streets with a bad pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
super standard jfish

callcalalcall

was referring to flop/turn

didnt see river, but ya thats standard too

[/ QUOTE ]
hu specialist soul readers think alike?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]