Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

The hand might not be very interesting, but my poor play to RWIII play, made me think there's something interesting here. I apologize if it's highly standard to the rest or rather simple.

Day 1, 2nd level. Robert Williamson came in two hours late, played a lot of hands since, but very passive. Limped or called all of 'em preflop, didn't do much post flop. He's probably down to 17k at this point. I have about 32k.

Blinds 100-200.

Folded to RW on the button, and he limps. SB completes. I look down at AKo and raise to 850. RW calls, sb folds.

Flop A39r
(Not 100% about the other two cards, but they were low and not connected).

I bet 1200, RW rather quickly raises to 3000. I call, not really sure what to make of that raise. First time he raised pf or on the flop.
How many 3-bet here?

Turn bricks. Something like A936. I check, he checks.
Anyone leads out?

Turn bricks. Something like A9368 no flush.
Who leads here? How much?
I check. He checks and mucks a weaker ace.

Obviously I played it bad and should have led out on the river. But, it did get me thinking about freezing your opponent with a marginal holdings. Something easily done in LHE, but seems like people often c/c or b/f with showdown value hands, but hardly raise early streets to get to a cheaper showdown.

I was hoping to get some insight from better players than me about how mundane this play is for them. I thought out of all RW plays (he played terrible), this was an interesting one, if he indeed intended to go to a cheap showdown by raising the flop.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

i like the line until river where i value bet

i would fold to a strong turn bet

i dont know who villain is, this is just in general

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

This hand illustrates the value of position, esp. against a
name player. If you lead on the turn or river, then what is your plan if you are raised?

Bruce

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

I bet the river probably intending to fold to a raise.

Also, his flop raise is really bad.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

I would 3bet the flop most of the time since I'm OOP, but calling given that he raised post-flop for the first time is OK. Once you call the flop, you should check the turn. After he checks behind on the turn, I'd probably bet the river, his line really looks like a weaker non-paired ace at this point. In my experience, raising the flop with a paired Ace and crap kicker is a very standard play. It is designed more to find out where you are rather than freeze your opponent.

Don't sweat not betting the river. Had you done so, he probably would have said "Check" and quickly turned over his cards.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

How is raising the flop with a weak ace standard here? Worse hand never calls, better hand never folds and you bloat the pot with a hand that doesn't play well in a large pot at all.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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How is raising the flop with a weak ace standard here? Worse hand never calls, better hand never folds and you bloat the pot with a hand that doesn't play well in a large pot at all.

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My definition of "standard" is frequently done, which in my experience this is. I took no position on whether it was optimal.

I happen to think it is optimal because of the currently out of vogue find out where you stand and put pressure on your opponents rationales that also support the currently somewhat out of vogue continuation bet, but find some merit in the counterarguments advanced by Daniel Negreanu, David Sklansky, and to a lesser degree Chris Ferguson.

In this particular hand, what do you do after calling on the flop when OP bets the turn and river?

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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How is raising the flop with a weak ace standard here? Worse hand never calls, better hand never folds and you bloat the pot with a hand that doesn't play well in a large pot at all.

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But it did buy him the turn and river for very little and he got to show down his TPWK. If he called all the way Yuv is gonna get more.

I'm not saying its 100% correct, but he found out for the least amount if he A was good. After Yuv called the flop raise, he probably mucks to a river bet.......maybe.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

I spoke to Yuv about this hand, my problem with RWIII's flop raise (aside from the obvious points Bond made) are this: You only buy yourself a cheap showdown when you happen to be playing against a deep-thinking, good player who might get gunshy on the river. In other words, he happened to by himself a cheap showdown in this specific hand, but I don't think on average he will accomplish this. It's no better than calling the flop, call/folding the turn, and folding the river.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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In other words, he happened to by himself a cheap showdown in this specific hand, but I don't think on average he will accomplish this. It's no better than calling the flop, call/folding the turn, and folding the river.

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After Yuv calls the almost-min-raise RWIII probably isn't putting another dime in the pot because he can't put Yuv (calling the flop raise OOP and raising OOP PF) on something he beats, and he only did it for an extra 1800 over the lead.

Any other line doesn't give him as strong a read on Yuv or cost as little.

God help me, but its a reasonable <font color="red"> BET FOR INFORMATION </font> [/puke]

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

Meh. But what about someone who will fire QQ/KK twice but fold right away to a flop raise (e.g., me)

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

I like checking the river with the intention of calling a small bet. Betting seems worse, since you are unlikely to get called by a worse hand and if you get raised you must puke.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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Meh. But what about someone who will fire QQ/KK twice but fold right away to a flop raise (e.g., me)

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His hand is good but weak so his first concern isn't getting value, but making sure he doesn't lose too much when second best.

Not saying its totally correct, but understandable....mind you, that's why calling raises with weak A's sucks, but he had position to minimize the damage, and maybe hit his 3 outer on the flop against a pair

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

Woodguy, you make a good point, assuming the player with the weak A never stations the river, in which case its really bad.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

Yuv, he put in 3k with that hand and lost all value against weaker hands. If one of us had played it, we'd put in like 4-5k and frequently get value from weaker hands.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

w/o reading responses, i would call flop and c/r turn. after he checks turn, clear b/f on river i expect him to pay off with any ace and never raise as a bluff.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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Yuv, he put in 3k with that hand and lost all value against weaker hands. If one of us had played it, we'd put in like 4-5k and frequently get value from weaker hands.

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Maybe, although KK or QQ might give up after the call on the flop. Also, there are so many more bigger aces than KK or QQ combinations. If RWIII has A3, there are 12 (3 remaining aces X 4 of kicker) X 10 (4-T, J, Q, K) = 120 combinations of bigger aces vs. 12 KK or QQ. So, you're losing more money most of the time (and a lot more if you don't fold to the river bet, which you might not), and maybe making more a very small fraction of the time.

Preflop RWIII played this as badly as possible (although I guess moving all in after the raise could have been worse).

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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w/o reading responses, i would call flop and c/r turn. after he checks turn, clear b/f on river i expect him to pay off with any ace and never raise as a bluff.

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Weird that you would c/r the turn but b/f the river if it goes c/c on the turn, no? I persoanlly hate c/r-ing the turn with such a medium strength hand. Is a pro ever really calling us with a weaker hand there?

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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w/o reading responses, i would call flop and c/r turn. after he checks turn, clear b/f on river i expect him to pay off with any ace and never raise as a bluff.

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Weird that you would c/r the turn but b/f the river if it goes c/c on the turn, no? I persoanlly hate c/r-ing the turn with such a medium strength hand. Is a pro ever really calling us with a weaker hand there?

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He's a live pro. They never fold anything but always fold everything.

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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w/o reading responses, i would call flop and c/r turn. after he checks turn, clear b/f on river i expect him to pay off with any ace and never raise as a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weird that you would c/r the turn but b/f the river if it goes c/c on the turn, no? I persoanlly hate c/r-ing the turn with such a medium strength hand. Is a pro ever really calling us with a weaker hand there?

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He's a live pro. They never fold anything but always fold everything.

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edit - nevermind, I just realized I don't understand your comment [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

Gobbos post makes a whole bunch of sense. I brought it up in a TR where i said something along the lines of "in some mysterious manner, live players tend to be way to tight and way to loose at all the wrong times."

Re: Simple hand vs Robert Williamson, WSOP ME day 1.
 

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He's a live pro. They never fold anything but always fold everything.













I brought it up in a TR where i said something along the lines of "in some mysterious manner, live players tend to be way to tight and way to loose at all the wrong times."

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LOL [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Gobbo's quote, so ridiculously true.