is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

i was at the $40 nl game at commerce and the game was really easy as people were playing pretty badly (going broke with one pair, calling draws oop and without the right price, etc). so early in the session, after three limpers the co goes all-in for $19, i have jacks on the button. i have about $100. is this a situation that i have to call, or could i lay it down and wait b/c the players are so bad. do 2+2ers advocate giving up some pre-flop equity when the players are so weak and that there will be plenty of opportunities to make money later in the session by taking advantage of their horrible plays?

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

$40 NL?

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

prolly nl200. 1/2 game, $40 minimum buy-in.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

Well, you could reraise all-in to isolate, but here it would probably be best to let them go.

I certainly don't like a call here. In some cases it would be okay, but not with a few limpers yet to act behind you.

I don't know how much FE you'll have against several limpers if you shove, and no idea what they're range here is, esp if they're bad. You might be ahead, but if they really are that bad there will be better spots.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

so in this case, with really bad players, it might've been better to fold and get my money in a better spot? i also thought about the hand range of the co but in the previous hand he bluffed off 3/4 of his stack his ace-high and i felt like he was tilting.

on another note, the $40 nl is exactly that a 1/2 $40 max buy where players are super-nitty. the game is easily beatable, simply playing ABC/TAG poker.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

what were the other players' stacks? if effective stack was $40 that's prolly a pretty bad fold.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
do 2+2ers advocate giving up some pre-flop equity when the players are so weak and that there will be plenty of opportunities to make money later in the session by taking advantage of their horrible plays?

[/ QUOTE ]
In general, that there will be opportunities to get your money in as a favorite later does not justify making a horrible fold now.

If you have $100 and can bet as much as you want (up to $100) as a 3:2 favorite now, and as much as you want as a 4:1 favorite next hand, how much should you bet to maximize your expected result? Bet it all and let it ride to quadruple up 48% of the time.

If there is one particular villain whose play is particularly bad and you expect to be able to get all-in against him as a significant favorite, you may value chips up to that player's stack more than chips beyond it, which is reason to be risk averse. If you can bet up to $150 next hand as a 4:1 favorite, bet $50 now. If you can bet up to $80 next hand, bet $20 now.

When you play against a table full of bad players with different stack sizes, the value of your chips is close to linear, and there is little reason to be risk-averse.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

In a cash game, the idea that there will be a "better spot" later is a terrible rational for making a play. You should make whatever play is most profitable in a given situation regardless of what might happen on a future hand. I can think of only two excpetions: 1) You are on a very limited bankroll and the game is extremely soft. In that case passing on marginally profitable high risk plays might be good idea. 2) In a capped buy-in game if you and a very bad player have a large stack compared to the buy-in it might be a good idea to fold a marginally profitable hand that risked your stack so you can take the bad players stack in a later hand (of course there is no guarantee, he could lose it to another player or leave the table).

That said, in the situation you've given, it's tough to say. If players are really loose, I'd probably call.

Paul

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
so in this case, with really bad players, it might've been better to fold and get my money in a better spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you rather be in that spot with your money, his money and the limpers' money when they all fold to your push?

[ QUOTE ]
i also thought about the hand range of the co but in the previous hand he bluffed off 3/4 of his stack his ace-high and i felt like he was tilting.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this inclines you to fold?

[ QUOTE ]
on another note, the $40 nl is exactly that a 1/2 $40 max buy where players are super-nitty. the game is easily beatable, simply playing ABC/TAG poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, why are you even asking the question? You have a pusher you think is on tilt, players you consider to be "super-nitty" and a great hand. If you don't push here, they need to drag you outside and shoot you.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
That said, in the situation you've given, it's tough to say. If players are really loose, I'd probably call.


[/ QUOTE ]

He says they are "super nitty". I guess they're all folding either way, but I'd like ATs to pay the max to take his shot.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]

When you play against a table full of bad players with different stack sizes, the value of your chips is close to linear, and there is little reason to be risk-averse.

[/ QUOTE ]

as just a side thought, if i thought i was a much better player than everybody else at the table aren't my chips even more valuable because in theory i can do more with them and should actually be a little more risk-adverse?

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

If you though he was tilting, sure, no problem isolating and playing him HU. I definitely don't want to take a flop with JJ multiway though, so for me calling is still not an option. If you jam and some doofus calls with AT or whatever, hey fine.

As originally posted, eh. I'm not suggesting you turn fold off a massive +EV spot, but as posted I can't say that it was not knowing the guy. I'd have to credit him with a hand as posted, and in the abstract I don't think I'd be far ahead enough to justify putting the rest of my stack in jeopardy... you have 5 players YTA, although at least two should certainly be folding

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so in this case, with really bad players, it might've been better to fold and get my money in a better spot?


[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you rather be in that spot with your money, his money and the limpers' money when they all fold to your push?


[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately, part of the players bad play is that they'll call off huge portions of their stacks with nitty hands, so there is no guarantee that they would fold to an all-in. and part of the reason why i started this thread was to figure out if i should play a big pot pre-flop with the lower end of the group one hands, or pass and make money playing medium and big pots with really bad players who constantly make mistakes both pre-flop and post-flop.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

Why would you even for a second think about folding Jacks here? It's the $40 max buy-in game at the commerce. I'd probably even go all-in.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i was at the $40 nl game at commerce and the game was really easy as people were playing pretty badly (going broke with one pair, calling draws oop and without the right price, etc). so early in the session, after three limpers the co goes all-in for $19, i have jacks on the button. i have about $100. is this a situation that i have to call, or could i lay it down and wait b/c the players are so bad. do 2+2ers advocate giving up some pre-flop equity when the players are so weak and that there will be plenty of opportunities to make money later in the session by taking advantage of their horrible plays?

[/ QUOTE ]


If you're ahead of his range(random suited junk, any ace, any pair, any two broadway cards, if hes tilting), push. If you are behind his range(AA KK), fold. If you are tied with his range(something like TT+,AQ+), you can call or fold.


If you are properly bankrolled, you should be making the most EV+ play no matter what in a cash game.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

I don't think I would ever fold this hand for $20. I think I'm with the crowd that would make it $40-50 to go, hoping to isolate against AK, and be willing to push the rest if I get re-raised again for my whole stack. I'm not crazy about going all-in preflop with jacks, but these games it's probably not a bad play

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

Were you the very next one to act? How big were the limpers / blinds stacks? Maybe going all in the hopes of forcing limpers out and isolating the $19 guy would be the way to go - but then I am still learning [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
make it $40-50 to go, hoping to isolate against AK, and be willing to push the rest

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not optimistic enough. In this type of game, don't be surprised if you isolate J9.

In the $100 max game at Foxwoods with a $2 big blind, a player pushed in EP for $20, and was called in LP. The pusher had QT, the caller JT.

People are too quick to imagine a coinflip is going to happen. If someone has TT, people will say the opponent has AK or QJ. If someone has AK, people will say the opponent is playing 44. When people play weak hands like the nuts, don't wait for KK to get involved.

In a past SNG hand, someone trapped with 55 against a big blind who would always push against limpers. Some people said it was a bad play, just asking for a coin-flip, but it picked up a lot of dead money, and it's pretty likely for a random hand to have at least one 2, 3, 4, or 5. The big blind had 52o.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

Thats an opportunity right there to take advantage of horrible play.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so in this case, with really bad players, it might've been better to fold and get my money in a better spot?


[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you rather be in that spot with your money, his money and the limpers' money when they all fold to your push?


[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately, part of the players bad play is that they'll call off huge portions of their stacks with nitty hands

[/ QUOTE ]

This just doesn't make any sense at all. How can they be nits if they will call off their stacks loosely? What is a "nitty hand"?

Frankly, your read is all over the place. They're either willing to call allins or they're nits. Not both.

[ QUOTE ]
so there is no guarantee that they would fold to an all-in. and part of the reason why i started this thread was to figure out if i should play a big pot pre-flop with the lower end of the group one hands, or pass and make money playing medium and big pots with really bad players who constantly make mistakes both pre-flop and post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if three call with the top 10% only, you have a 4% equity edge. You make your own decisions about who is making preflop mistakes.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When you play against a table full of bad players with different stack sizes, the value of your chips is close to linear, and there is little reason to be risk-averse.

[/ QUOTE ]

as just a side thought, if i thought i was a much better player than everybody else at the table aren't my chips even more valuable because in theory i can do more with them and should actually be a little more risk-adverse?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a cash game. If you get it in as a 60/40 favorite and lose, you just rebuy. You give up a lot of expected value if you sit around waiting for even better situations.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!

Of course you have a chance to be an overwhelming chip leader one in six times. But especially in the early stages this doesn't help you much, since you will have a lot of hands to play and have a small chance to keep the chip-advantage you have now...

In a cashgame however you should take all the smallest edges unless you are on a small BR (for the same reasons as in a tournament). You can lose and buyin again, but your long term expectation is highest if you take all these small edges.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not correct. That's why I said, "in general" but posted an exception.

You can't buy in for however much you want. If a fish has 300 BB, and you can only buy in for 100 BB, don't take a 500 BB coin-flip for your whole stack which expects to gain 1 BB. You expect to be able to use the chips from 100 to 300 BB more profitably than you expect to use the chips from 700 to 900 BB, so in that case, the chip value is sublinear, and you should be risk averse.

That said,

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] People are very bad at recognizing which edges are small. Poker players are used to asking what the right play is, not seriously considering how right it is. Modern backgammon players tend to have a much better idea of how right a play is due to objective numerical feedbaack from computer programs, and I think that's part of the reason it's relatively easy for us to learn to play poker well. When people say they are passing up a small edge, they are often passing up a big edge.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Most of the time, chip value is very close to linear, which means you should not be passing up edges.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] At times, you should be happy to gamble. The chip value may be superlinear, or you may be able to set up a better combination of stack sizes. If there is one good player with a deep stack behind you, taking a marginal gamble against this player can make much more profitable situation. Either you cripple him, or your stack is reduced to an amount where his deep stack is not as much of a threat to taking the rest of the table's money.

[ QUOTE ]

This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!


[/ QUOTE ]
This is very misleading. You should almost always be happy to get your chips in as a 55-45 favorite in a tournament. There was a mediocre article on this in the 2+2 Internet Magazine, and a better one in CardPlayer earlier. You have a significant chance to bust out, but you will be in a poor position to win the tournament or even cash if you fold. Your tournament is always on the line, even if you fold. The risks of blinding down, or not having enough chips to take advantage of a later situation are less obvious than the risk of busting out immediately, but they are still there and are usually about as important.

Fossilman said that if you knowingly give up a 60:40 edge, you're not a good player. However, people erroneously believe that by giving up large edges, they will somehow become good players.

Cue the chimpanzee to jump in and scream that I'm wrong about everything because I've said something counterintuitive, hence worth saying.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if i thought i was a much better player than everybody else at the table aren't my chips even more valuable because in theory i can do more with them and should actually be a little more risk-adverse?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are two competing factors.

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] If you bust out, you get the profitable opportunity to rebuy. Risking busting out increases the average number of chips you have on the table. If you are getting 3:2 to put your last 200 BB chips in as a 3:2 underdog, and can rebuy for 100 BB, then folding leaves 200 BB on the table, while calling averages 3/5(100) + 2/5 (500) = 260 chips.

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] When you double up, you can continue to apply your skills to the extra chips you have... until you cover your opponents. When you start to cover your opponents, it becomes increasingly unlikely that additional chips will be used, so you expect to apply your skill advantage less effectively.

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

It's not a tournament, so why even consider passing up a profitable spot?

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it has been replied before, but in a cashgame you should never pass a profitable spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not correct. That's why I said, "in general" but posted an exception.

You can't buy in for however much you want. If a fish has 300 BB, and you can only buy in for 100 BB, don't take a 500 BB coin-flip for your whole stack which expects to gain 1 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very thin edge. Could you explain how you would ever know that you had that edge?

[ QUOTE ]
You expect to be able to use the chips from 100 to 300 BB more profitably than you expect to use the chips from 700 to 900 BB, so in that case, the chip value is sublinear, and you should be risk averse.

That said,

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] People are very bad at recognizing which edges are small.

[/ QUOTE ]

For good reason though. Calculating your equity on the fly against players you have only seen play a few hands isn't easy. And what you think is a good edge against their range can be a very poor edge, or no edge at all, because you misjudged their range, which is quite easy to do. And vice versa.

[ QUOTE ]
Poker players are used to asking what the right play is, not seriously considering how right it is. Modern backgammon players tend to have a much better idea of how right a play is due to objective numerical feedbaack from computer programs, and I think that's part of the reason it's relatively easy for us to learn to play poker well. When people say they are passing up a small edge, they are often passing up a big edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the opposite is much more often true. Players take small edges thinking they are much bigger. After all, what else is a player doing who pushes over a raise with a raggy ace?

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Most of the time, chip value is very close to linear, which means you should not be passing up edges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you mind explaining how we can know that it's not linear? I understand the theory in a tourney, but how does it work for cash?

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] At times, you should be happy to gamble. The chip value may be superlinear, or you may be able to set up a better combination of stack sizes. If there is one good player with a deep stack behind you, taking a marginal gamble against this player can make much more profitable situation. Either you cripple him, or your stack is reduced to an amount where his deep stack is not as much of a threat to taking the rest of the table's money.

[ QUOTE ]

This only makes sense in a tournament. For example you are a 55% favorite now and the next two hands, but you have to go allin. You will not bust out of the tournament in these three hands 5 out of 6 times if you take all these edges!


[/ QUOTE ]
This is very misleading. You should almost always be happy to get your chips in as a 55-45 favorite in a tournament. There was a mediocre article on this in the 2+2 Internet Magazine, and a better one in CardPlayer earlier. You have a significant chance to bust out, but you will be in a poor position to win the tournament or even cash if you fold. Your tournament is always on the line, even if you fold. The risks of blinding down, or not having enough chips to take advantage of a later situation are less obvious than the risk of busting out immediately, but they are still there and are usually about as important.

Fossilman said that if you knowingly give up a 60:40 edge, you're not a good player. However, people erroneously believe that by giving up large edges, they will somehow become good players.

Cue the chimpanzee to jump in and scream that I'm wrong about everything because I've said something counterintuitive, hence worth saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'm the chimpanzee, but I found the post very good. I think players who say "I'm passing up x edge because these players are poor and I can win more later" just don't understand that part of being a poor player is passing up x edge!

Re: is it better to fold pre-flop in an easy game w/ jacks?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so in this case, with really bad players, it might've been better to fold and get my money in a better spot?


[/ QUOTE ]


Wouldn't you rather be in that spot with your money, his money and the limpers' money when they all fold to your push?


[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately, part of the players bad play is that they'll call off huge portions of their stacks with nitty hands, so there is no guarantee that they would fold to an all-in. and part of the reason why i started this thread was to figure out if i should play a big pot pre-flop with the lower end of the group one hands, or pass and make money playing medium and big pots with really bad players who constantly make mistakes both pre-flop and post-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you making this an either/or question? It's not.

Yes, you should get your money in now with an edge.

Yes, you should also try to get into pots with them later with an even bigger edge.

There is no reason why you have to give up an edge now for an even bigger one later. Take both.