When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

Two scenarios here:

Scenario 1: You have bet the flop and turn and were called by one player. On the river, you grab a stack of chips to bluff the river, and as soon as you grab them and lift them above your stack, your opponent throws in his chips to call.

Scenario 2: Similar flop and turn. On the river, you count out your chips (alongside your stack) and put them in your hand. While you are looking at your opponent to see if he's likely to call you, he says, "I call you. I've got a pair of aces."

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In neither of these cases have I been ruled that I have made a bet, and I've check-folded both times. But I also don't want to seem dishonest or an angle-shooter at the table. Am I ethically supposed to follow through with the bet that I would have made if my opponent didn't already call? Is it considered an angle shoot? Would you give up the bet if it's to a fish that you don't want to be upset with you?

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

In both cases, you have been saved a bet by overzealous opponent. No angleshoot by you.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

As described, no angle.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

To me it seems more like a bad habit. I try to never make any check, bet, raise, muck jesture prior to my turn. I don't like giving folks information.

That being said I would not consider these incidents "angle shooting" just bad habits. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Peace,
Mygtar

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

It is very common to pull out chips on the river and riffle them while you are thinking about how the hand went down and whether a bet (for value or bluff as need be) is now appropriate. And you can certainly look at your opponent while doing this. And if there is a bet line, it is abundantly clear you can play hockey with your chips behind the bet line if you want.

In reality, and I don't play limit a lot, at a 1/2 limit game and somebody is mulling over putting $4 into a $40 pot, of course the guy on the other side of the table is going to fire his $4 call and probably ahead of your bet sometimes as you pointed out.

I don't see anything wrong here. It all sounds pretty innocuous. Perhaps you are lucky to have saved a BB, perhaps villain fired a call into the pot with air hoping you would do just that. I don't know.

What I do know is that in NL people don't do this for obvious reasons.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

let the call without you betting and then announce raise. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

These can be ruled bets. In places that use forward motion these sound like bets to me; I would really want to be there to get a good description of what happened.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

I've been wondering the same thing. This happens all the time at Commerce.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

If they blatantly jump the gun then it's not an angle shoot. It's not a bet till it's over the line or forward motion past your cards. ** Against such predictable and easy opponents you get extra value on your hands because you sometimes save river bets.

** if you're consistently getting bets ready, sliding them forward but stopping just shy of the line, this is angle shooting. This tactic is commonly found in no limit games. A player makes a move like they're going all-in but stops just shy of the line hoping to get their opponent to act or even flip their cards early.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

Not angle shooting if they act out of turn. That's their problem for not having the patience/intelligence to wait for you to bet.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 1: as soon as you grab them and lift them above your stack, your opponent throws in his chips to call.

Scenario 2: you count out your chips (alongside your stack) and put them in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

No forward motion here. Just overzealous opponents. nh.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two scenarios here:

Scenario 1: You have bet the flop and turn and were called by one player. On the river, you grab a stack of chips to bluff the river, and as soon as you grab them and lift them above your stack, your opponent throws in his chips to call.

Scenario 2: Similar flop and turn. On the river, you count out your chips (alongside your stack) and put them in your hand. While you are looking at your opponent to see if he's likely to call you, he says, "I call you. I've got a pair of aces."

------

In neither of these cases have I been ruled that I have made a bet, and I've check-folded both times. But I also don't want to seem dishonest or an angle-shooter at the table. Am I ethically supposed to follow through with the bet that I would have made if my opponent didn't already call? Is it considered an angle shoot? Would you give up the bet if it's to a fish that you don't want to be upset with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think at least one of those pots would have been yours; maybe both.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

Funny when I posted the exact same scenario as your number 1 a couple years ago everybody(about 80%) who responded said I was a douche for stacking my chips, gathering them and then check/folding after being beat into the pot while playing 8/16 at the Wynn. Stange how opinions change based on the context of quesiton. My question was basically phrased "did I do something wrong here".

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Funny when I posted the exact same scenario as your number 1 a couple years ago everybody(about 80%) who responded said I was a douche for stacking my chips, gathering them and then check/folding after being beat into the pot while playing 8/16 at the Wynn. Stange how opinions change based on the context of quesiton. My question was basically phrased "did I do something wrong here".

[/ QUOTE ]

This also points to it being hard to answer some of these things on the net. I could describe basically the same set of events two different ways to get different responses. I don't know if I responded back then, but I see no reason in limit to be picking up the chips and playing wiht them like that. I am very inclined to rule this sort of thing a bet.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

This happens to me about once every other month, generally when I reach for the stack or have barely lifted them off the stack in the same exact scenario (firing the third barrel on the river after missing) and every time I've put the chips back/let go of them and just check-folded to no fanfare.

Overzealous opponents = saved bets.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

no angle here

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

Lets take it a step further:

Overzealous caller slings chips in while you are grabbing chips. So once they get in there, calmly check...then raise.

Nick

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

[ QUOTE ]

** if you're consistently getting bets ready, sliding them forward but stopping just shy of the line, this is angle shooting. This tactic is commonly found in no limit games. A player makes a move like they're going all-in but stops just shy of the line hoping to get their opponent to act or even flip their cards early.

[/ QUOTE ]

What percentage of poker rooms with the race track on the felt actually consider the line to be meaningful when deciding on action -vs- the forward motion rule?

When I played at the Golden Nugget (this summer) the line was meaningless.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lets take it a step further:

Overzealous caller slings chips in while you are grabbing chips. So once they get in there, calmly check...then raise.

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

Competent dealer tells Opponent that you have not acted yet. He says "Sorry, I thought he was betting and I was calling."
You check.
He checks.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lets take it a step further:

Overzealous caller slings chips in while you are grabbing chips. So once they get in there, calmly check...then raise.

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

Competent dealer tells Opponent that you have not acted yet. He says "Sorry, I thought he was betting and I was calling."
You check.
He checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the opponents basis for thinking that you were betting? Did you say something that sounded like the word "bet"? Did you start to move forward with your chips? If you did nothing that resembled a bet, then I disagree with letting the opponent take back his chips under the premise that he was confused about your action.

Isn't this inconsistent with the idea that out of turn action is binding if the action does not change before it gets to the villian? Putting chips in the pot is pretty unequivocal action. If you are not facing a bet, then this is a bet on your part.

In most cases that I have seen, the second to act just fires chips in the middle before the first guy does anything. If you let the opponent check behind here you are opening an angle. He bets if you check, but now that he knows you plan to check raise, he would rather just check behind. He was planning to call a bet anyway, so that result is a wash for him.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

What I want to know is, if they verbalize "I call" before you've bet, can you then bet as much as you darn well want at that point (NL) and is their call binding?

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I want to know is, if they verbalize "I call" before you've bet, can you then bet as much as you darn well want at that point (NL) and is their call binding?

[/ QUOTE ]

The rules for when a bet is committed to the pot are completely different in limit and NL, so this thread would not be the best place to discuss NL.

Re: When callers beat you to the pot at limit poker - Angle shoot?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lets take it a step further:

Overzealous caller slings chips in while you are grabbing chips. So once they get in there, calmly check...then raise.

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

Competent dealer tells Opponent that you have not acted yet. He says "Sorry, I thought he was betting and I was calling."
You check.
He checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

Player #2 overzealously acted out of turn. If Player #1 doesn't "change the action" and checks, Player #2's bet stands, and Player #1 can pop him.

And Player #2 learns to never toss their chips in prematurely ever again, but not before competant dealer probably ends up having to call the floor after Player #2 complains to high heaven about the situation he put himself in.

This situation I just wrote out pretty much never ever happens, but if it did the dealer would/should also then keep an eye on Player #1, as someone who would pull out the above perfectly legal maneuver on an overzealous player may have the potential in them to run a shot as well.