200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

I had sat down fairly recently, so I don't have strong reads. Villain already had his big stack when I came to the table, so I don't know how he got it. He seemed kinda loose-passive, but I have not seen him get out of line postflop.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 7 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

Hero (SB): $443.60
BB: $200.00
UTG: $198.35
UTG+1: $425.70
MP: $503.25
CO: $246.15
BTN: $274.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $8.00</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $26.00</font>, BB folds, MP calls $18.00

Flop: ($54) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $35.00</font>, MP calls $35.00

Turn: ($124) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero?

Also, plan for the river?

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

I think without strong reads, I can be comfy with c/c the turn and river.
WA/WB situation. If he checked the turn, id go ahead and value bet the river. Id even be inclined to call a med. size raise, but not an all in. Id think youll see TT-QQ here alot, and sometimes youll be beat as well.
This is without reads.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

since you're OOP and deep you should make a raise that doesn't give him good implied odds and negates the positional disadvantage. Reraising preflop to around $65 is probably best.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reraising preflop to around $65 is probably best.

[/ QUOTE ]
Umm LOL?

That just makes him fold nearly everything.

I can agree with making it a little bigger (say $35) but $65... wow, no.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]

That just makes him fold nearly everything.

[/ QUOTE ]Does that really matter? Being 200bb deep and against an unknown you're not winning this pot very often postflop and you're not going to be able to put him on a range of hands because he'd call any 2 that you'd reraise with because of the stacks and he has position.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That just makes him fold nearly everything.

[/ QUOTE ]Does that really matter? Being 200bb deep and against an unknown you're not winning this pot very often postflop and you're not going to be able to put him on a range of hands because he'd call any 2 that you'd reraise with because of the stacks and he has position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey let's turn KK into 32o and win 10 bucks pre-flop! If you just want to take it down pre-flop why do you need KK?

You have to be kidding about not winning at showdown very often.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Being 200bb deep and against an unknown you're not winning this pot very often postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

????

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]

You have to be kidding about not winning at showdown very often.

[/ QUOTE ]i'm saying you'll fold it before showdown often.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

Yes, it does matter. Raising that much pre is a horrible idea.

So he folds every hand you have beat, knows you have AA/KK, does not incorrectly draw to any sets, and you win 8 bucks?

If there are actually any PRO's to raising to 65 preflop, please tell me what they are.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Being 200bb deep and against an unknown you're not winning this pot very often postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

?!?!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there are actually any PRO's to raising to 65 preflop, please tell me what they are.

[/ QUOTE ]control pot size by not seeing a flop. also calling preflop for deception isn't bad either. i think that's better than reraising so much and giving away our hadn,.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That just makes him fold nearly everything.

[/ QUOTE ]Does that really matter? Being 200bb deep and against an unknown you're not winning this pot very often postflop and you're not going to be able to put him on a range of hands because he'd call any 2 that you'd reraise with because of the stacks and he has position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow... You sir are an idiot.

I like a turn check here, and see what happens...

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

you have to be the biggest nit ever if all you want with KK preflop is take down the blinds/open raises.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That just makes him fold nearly everything.

[/ QUOTE ]Does that really matter? Being 200bb deep and against an unknown you're not winning this pot very often postflop and you're not going to be able to put him on a range of hands because he'd call any 2 that you'd reraise with because of the stacks and he has position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising so big that the only hand that calls you is the one that is crushing you is ludicrous.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
you have to be the biggest idiot ever if all you want with KK preflop is take down the blinds/open raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

Against donks a lot of the time Ill c/c the turn here then donk the river.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there are actually any PRO's to raising to 65 preflop, please tell me what they are.

[/ QUOTE ]control pot size by not seeing a flop. also calling preflop for deception isn't bad either. i think that's better than reraising so much and giving away our hadn,.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense meant but maybe you should brush up on your NL play some.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

Also, not sure if this matters or not, but here is where I got most of my stack on this table:

BB was a LAGtard who had lost a medium-sized pot to me last orbit in a blind battle, so I knew there was a high chance he had [censored] here.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 7 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

Hero (SB): $278.35
BB: $156.50
UTG: $187.75
UTG+1: $432.70
MP: $521.25
CO: $245.35
BTN: $275.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 Players)
5 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8.00</font>, BB calls $6.00

Flop: ($16) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $11.00</font>, <font color="red">BB raises all-in to $148.50</font>, Hero calls $137.50

Turn: ($313) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($313) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $313.00 ($3 Rake)

BB had T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and LOST (-$156.50)
Hero had T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Fives) and WON (+$153.50)

The reason I post this is the rest of the table might view me as "unbluffable." It's probably not THAT relevant, but it's better than nothing.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

wow way to go with your read. maybe someday you'll be as good as thelaughlinman lol.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow way to go with your read. maybe someday you'll be as good as thelaughlinman lol.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you done making useless posts?

[/ QUOTE ]yeah I think so, I am just so impressed with thelaughlinman and calling with middle pair and all. we should all aspire to be as good as he is.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow way to go with your read. maybe someday you'll be as good as thelaughlinman lol.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you done making useless posts?

[/ QUOTE ]yeah I think so, I am just so impressed with thelaughlinman and calling with middle pair and all. we should all aspire to be as good as he is.

[/ QUOTE ]
I missed your sarcasm the first time around. Didn't mean to be harsh. Still, no need to talk about thelaughlinman in an unrelated thread.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

I was being series in my replies [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]. We are OOP with a big pair and a big RIO hand with deep stacks.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was being series in my replies [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]. We are OOP with a big pair and a big RIO hand with deep stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just meant the bit about "being as good as thelaughlinman." Please don't bring up unrelated topics.

Now back to the hand please.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That just makes him fold nearly everything.

[/ QUOTE ]Does that really matter? Being 200bb deep and against an unknown you're not winning this pot very often postflop and you're not going to be able to put him on a range of hands because he'd call any 2 that you'd reraise with because of the stacks and he has position.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course it matters, don't be a nit. this deep a bigger raise probably is better so that we cut down on his implied odds w/sc's, small pp's etc, but 65 is absurdly high unless you are trying to make him think you are bluff 3betting.

as for the hand i think it's time to c/c the turn and value bet the river if he checks behind.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

Ok, so the consensus seems to be C/C turn and value bet the river.

That's what I did:

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 7 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

Hero (SB): $443.60
BB: $200.00
UTG: $198.35
UTG+1: $425.70
MP: $503.25
CO: $246.15
BTN: $274.40

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $8.00</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $26.00</font>, BB folds, MP calls $18.00

Flop: ($54) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $35.00</font>, MP calls $35.00

Turn: ($124) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($124) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $75.00</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $236.00</font>, Hero?

I didn't bet a lot on the river because it wasn't a great card for me (I would have bet more on a low blank) but I think I can get still get some calls from 1-pair hands.

Now what? Fold?

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

I dont know why, but I dont believe the raise here. I just dont. It doesnt add up to me...plus, now were getting 3-1 on our call. I think its a badly played jj-AA here...and were ahead about half the time....stupid unknowns. Call...and wince. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

ugh. i probably call, but i'm not crazy about it.


edit: gah, this is gross. wouldn't be surprised if you got floated w/T9 or some garbage [censored] like that, or if he thinks he can bluff you out.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

fold you are beat

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold you are beat

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep. *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by crunny

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
ugh. Only hands i can see villain having beat us is AcKc or TT.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really?

I can see him having a ton of hands that hit that river:

TT, T9, 76, QJ (kind of a loose call on the flop, but we're pretty deep), stuff like A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], etc...

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

oops, i deleted my post, it was wrong.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

the more i look at this the more i want to fold.

edit: results

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ugh. Only hands i can see villain having beat us is AcKc or TT.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really?

I can see him having a ton of hands that hit that river:

TT, T9, 76, QJ (kind of a loose call on the flop, but we're pretty deep), stuff like A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right of course. The fact that we are deep means he can have a much wider range. Given that FD and SD's now complete on the river u should probably fold.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

My initial reaction in the moment would be to say [censored] it and talk myself into a call but most villains rarely bluff raise river. I am almost positive you are beat and think a fold is good...I find myself calling way to much in these kinda spots and they always have something. It is a huge leak in my game.

If you had lots of history with villain and he was aggro then I could see calling if he knew you would throw out a blocking bet and felt he could push you off it, but it really looks like a flush here.

I think the check call on turn is good but I think betting the turn may be even better. I think its safe to fold to a raise if you lead out strong on the turn.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

i can't take it anymore results please?

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

Hand is perfect if you fold river.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

I cant see a vulnerable hand like T9 checking the turn. He might check the river, but he's not going to give a free card to a 3-better who just checked. If he had clubs, wouldnt he semi-bluff here? I would think the most likely hands would be set, or overpair. Obviously, your hand is good, he might also be semi-bluffing the scare card in that if you have KK or AA you fold, but if you dont that QQ or JJ is the best hand here. I think its close enough to call though getting 3-1!!! Anyone think were ALWAYS behind here?
Then again, he could suck and just be playing ABC, hit his hand and be value betting it. I'd call and take the loss.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i can't take it anymore results please?

[/ QUOTE ]
I folded.

Villain seemed kinda passive, and I didn't have a good enough reason to think that he would bluff-raise me here.

Re: 200 NL, KK in a sick spot, 200+ BB deep. *DELETED*
 

I would fold since you have no reads. I see your river bet as a value bet/blocking bet, therefore when it's raised I think you need to get away from this hand.