St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

Did i play that hand too aggressive?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

River: (21.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 24.20 BB

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

why did you bet the flop?

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

Don't understand the preflop raise from the blinds with KJs.
Don't understand the flop lead with most probably the worst hand and 4 outs to improve.
The rest is irrelevant.

EDIT: Discount Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. It's ~3 outs. Plus reverse domination.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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Don't understand the preflop raise from the blinds with KJs.

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After 5 limpers not raising is a pretty significant mistake.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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Don't understand the preflop raise from the blinds with KJs.

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you consider this a huge leak after 5 limpers OOP? if so, why?

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

C-betting into 5 people on an A-hi flop with KJ sooted may be a bit rash. IF you check call 1, then you are getting good odds to draw to your GSSD.

I would probably ck/c and hope it was only 1 bet back to me.

Turn and river are fine.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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Don't understand the preflop raise from the blinds with KJs.

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you consider this a huge leak after 5 limpers OOP? if so, why?

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if none of the 5 limpers raise, then you likely have the best hand, and way more than 16% equity in the pot, EV-wise.

I think.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

I don't consider it a huge leak, but I don't think it's such a great move OOP. Give me button, I'd raise.
Though I'm a bit of a nit preflop.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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if none of the 5 limpers raise, then you likely have the best hand, and way more than 16% equity in the pot, EV-wise.

I think.

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you're correct.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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I don't consider it a huge leak, but I don't think it's such a great move OOP. Give me button, I'd raise.

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why does it make that much difference? your preflop equity doesnt change.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

Kit ... cmon now ... playing any hand in position = extracting more bets when you hit and losing less bets when you don't.
Preflop equity doesn't change, but postflop expectations do.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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I don't consider it a huge leak, but I don't think it's such a great move OOP. Give me button, I'd raise.

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why does it make that much difference? your preflop equity doesnt change.

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Your equity will be the same, but playing OOP is much harder than playing in position, especially with moderate strength hands like KJs.

Me, I would usually limp here because of hte OOP aspect of it, but I wouldnt slam someone who raised, assuming that they have really good post flop play.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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Kit ... cmon now ... playing any hand in position = extracting more bets when you hit and losing less bets when you don't.
Preflop equity doesn't change, but postflop expectations do.

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so then let me pick your brain a bit...i'm rather curious. what are you raising pf here, and why? would you raise KQs? AQo? and how did you come about these pf raising ranges?

im not saying your wrong (i've cooled off a bit on these things)...just wondering what your logic is. its just makes more sense if you dont pick a range that is arbitrary.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

PF is such an easy raise, as is KTs and QJs. I would also raise JTs for fun and junk.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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if none of the 5 limpers raise, then you likely have the best hand, and way more than 16% equity in the pot, EV-wise.

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This reasoning must be flawed. Ax and low pps are out there more often than not as ar suited connectors who takes good chunks of equity.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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Kit ... cmon now ... playing any hand in position = extracting more bets when you hit and losing less bets when you don't.
Preflop equity doesn't change, but postflop expectations do.

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so then let me pick your brain a bit...i'm rather curious. what are you raising pf here, and why? would you raise KQs? AQo? and how did you come about these pf raising ranges?

im not saying your wrong (i've cooled off a bit on these things)...just wondering what your logic is. its just makes more sense if you dont pick a range that is arbitrary.

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I don't have a hand chart, if that's what you are wondering [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I also must admit that it's been a while since I played at tables where you get 5 people to limp.

Anyways, I would raise KQs and AQo in this position. You would argue that KQs is only marginally better than KJs, but I won't agree. With KQs you have much better odds to straighten out and it has much more value when spiking a pair. With KJs you will see an overcard 60% of the time by the river - AND you are OOP. Not fun. With KQs you'll see an ace how often? I don't remember the percentage off the bat, but it's heck of a lot less than 60%.

I'd actually like KQs more than AQo here because of str8 and flush possibilities in a multiway pot. AQo is fine hand due to its high-cards strength and the fact that I am probably dominating Ax, KQ, QJ, QT limpers. And the King will fall a small percentage of the time.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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if none of the 5 limpers raise, then you likely have the best hand, and way more than 16% equity in the pot, EV-wise.

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This reasoning must be flawed. Ax and low pps are out there more often than not as ar suited connectors who takes good chunks of equity.

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-You don't have to have the best hand to have a significant equity edge
-In this spot your equity is probably greater than with A6o or 22

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

Don't bet the flop, but the rest is good.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

BTW, about the position thing you guys have it backwards. Bloating the pot and making postflop more straightforward is much better when you are OOP.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

yeah..i don't understand 3-betting with the nuts on the turn???

Just don't bet the flop.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

Thx. I do understand that the flop bet wasnt premium play.
I'm surprised about the pf discussion. According to SSHE thats standard play. They even suggest to raise with any suited hand on a loose table, and this table was loose. With all the limpers before me I want to create a big pot.
Is there a problem with 3-betting the turn. I slowed down on the river due to the river card.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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I slowed down on the river due to the river card.

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You did? You bet out and got called in two places.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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I slowed down on the river due to the river card.

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You did? You bet out and got called in two places.

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Right, not exactly slowing down.

Re: St8 on the turn - too agressive?
 

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I'm surprised about the pf discussion. According to SSHE thats standard play. They even suggest to raise with any suited hand on a loose table, and this table was loose.

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I'm pretty sure they don't. I'd check, but my copy of SSHE is not within arm's reach, I don't have one of those extendo-grabby things like the ones they give free with a new HoverRound, and my ass is comfy.

Also, I don't really care that much.