Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

NO reads at all

Ultimate Bet
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25./$0.5
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.4SB, 4 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.2BB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10.2BB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 10.2BB

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

3bet PF, not sure I raise the river.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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3bet PF, not sure I raise the river.

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3bet PF because it was an open raiser from middle position that I probably have beat, correct?

Had it been a raise of a limp or an early position raiser, then cold call?

Why no raise on river?

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

3-Bet Pre-Flop. AQs is likely best against an open raiser from middle position. Clear out the rest of the players with a raise.

What hands that you beat will call your river raise?

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

I 3-bet preflop.

Also, I somewhat want to raise the flop as played. I doubt I'll take the pot down, but I may be able to free card the turn, plus Button might be loose/passive enough (he did cold call preflop) to call 2 on the flop (which I'm not upset with) since the pot is starting to get big.

As played on the river, I don't really know what BB is up to, so I probably call and hope Button overcalls.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

I'd 3bet preflop and raise the flop. I'd probably call the river since unless button also has a heart draw he's probably going to overcall one but not two and if we get 3bet we're in trouble.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

i'm probably 3betting AQ preflop in the spot (I think this depends on the generaly game play of that limit and site ... which I don't know)

i'm probably raising the flop too ... but calling to build a larger pot isn't that bad either

on the river ... I think raising is a pretty bad move

there are two other guys calling down - you have the nut flush draw (that makes it unlikely that both of these guy also have the flush draw)
there are a couple of low straight draws on the board - but with two guys calling I would assume that at least one has hit the board (or has a smaller pp) and will call (after they call the turn)

so unless this guy is going to 3bet a worse hand you put yourself in a losing situation by not going for overcalls(especially since you'll likely call a 3bet, and lose)

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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I'd 3bet preflop and raise the flop. I'd probably call the river since unless button also has a heart draw he's probably going to overcall one but not two and if we get 3bet we're in trouble.

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What does raising on the flop accomplish?

I really don't have a hand to protect. By raising I might knock out a weaker Ace or Queen that would call me down if I spiked either and I'm also knocking out players I would like to have involved if I spiked the flush.

Is the problem with the river raise that there's no upside to it?

I don't really understand the thinking there.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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What does raising on the flop accomplish?

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Mostly freecarding, with a side of outs buying and it's not impossible our hand is good. All he did was pfr from a mid position and make a possible cbet, many high card hands including worse As are still in his range.

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Is the problem with the river raise that there's no upside to it?

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Sorta. Basically:

-I assume BB never folds this river. He probably calls if your hand is good and raises if it's not. So you lose 2/3 bets when behind to him (depending on if you were folding to a 3bet) and win 1 extra if ahead.
-Given how button played this hand he usually either has a made hand worse than yours, worse hearts or occasionally something like Q9 that made 2 pair. He's basically always raising 2pair and folding busted hearts. The most important part is that something like A9 can probably fold the river for 2 cold but will probably overcall if it got this far. If you raise and get 3bet that's similarly bad to raising BB when he has you beat, except it's easier to fold to a 3bet

So basically raising is only better when you have BB beat AND button has busted hearts. If you're beat by either player calling is obviously better, and if you have BB beat and button has a made hand then you're still getting the same 2BB you would have gotten if you raised.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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Mostly freecarding, with a side of outs buying and it's not impossible our hand is good. All he did was pfr from a mid position and make a possible cbet, many high card hands including worse As are still in his range.


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When I played the hand, I briefly considered the "buying outs" factor, but rejected it.

If I had a weak A or Q and might get a stronger A or Q to fold with a raise, that would be great. But I had strong A and Q. If anything, I wanted weaker ones to call if one came out. At least that's the way I was thinking about it.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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What does raising on the flop accomplish?

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If everyone calls, you've successfully cashed in your huge equity advantage. If you force folds, you make it easier for your A and Q outs to stand up. Either way, you win.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

I should have grunched this one, because I probably wouldn't have caught all the right plays. But I'll re-iterate them here for my own learning and for anyone else who failed to grunch.

PF-- reraise as AQs fairs favorably against an MP raiser.

Raise flop -- if cold called you get additional value, if villains fold it may protect your outs and get you a free card.

On the river -- button is unlikely to call two cold without a winning hand, but he might call for one. So you have similar upside by calling but without risking a 3-bet from BB.

This is a good learning hand.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

3 bet pre flop, bet the flop, check the turn and raise the river. Win monies.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

i 3b pf

given that you didn't, raise the flop

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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What does raising on the flop accomplish?

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You have two strong overcards and the nut flush draw. Raising the flop is often going to be for value (and I'd cap it as well, especially if it remains multi-way). As an added bonus it can buy you additional outs, a free card if you choose to take it, and every once in a while, the entire pot.

I don't hate the river raise, but I'd want a read on BB before I made it. The way he played his hand it really looks like he turned two pair or better, and as others said, if he didn't then you're looking at a relatively narrow range of worse hands that a decent player would call a river raise with (and play that way to the river).

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

3 bet PF, raise that flop, raise the turn, and I'm not raising that river.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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3 bet PF, raise that flop, raise the turn, and I'm not raising that river.

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why would you raise the turn

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

Harv,

You think it's most probable that BB turned two pair? He's in a perfect to c/r, and that 9 is not a scare card at all. I'd expect this to just be 8x or 9x a whole lot. The read I want on the river is not on BB. I think we beat him a whole lot. The read I want is on button. I think if button is tight, we have an easy raise. If button is loose, a call looks much better to get the likely overcall.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

Raising this turn is a move that would require a bit more of a read, but is one that I do like for several reasons. It's possible you may get a weaker paired Ace or Queen (A4/A2/Q2/Q4) to fold, and we have 15 outs to a very strong hand. BB waking up could mean two pair, however, and I suppose with no read at all a call may be better.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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The read I want on the river is not on BB. I think we beat him a whole lot. The read I want is on button. I think if button is tight, we have an easy raise. If button is loose, a call looks much better to get the likely overcall.

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It's three-way after the other guy folds. If we call we get 1 BB max. If we raise, we're almost certainly getting 1 BB from BB, with the added potential of getting 2 more from a Button coldcall.

There's no point going for overcalls in a three-way pot.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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It's three-way after the other guy folds. If we call we get 1 BB max. If we raise, we're almost certainly getting 1 BB from BB

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Assuming our hand is good (I agree that there's no specific reason to put BB on a better hand but we're not even close to the nuts here)

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with the added potential of getting 2 more from a Button coldcall.

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I doubt button has more than a pair of 8s and even fish can probably fold that for 2 bets.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

I 3-bet pf. I would raise the flop. I just call river.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

I just want to add that you shouldnt take the free card if you get the pot HU.

The pot will be around 5-6 BB's so with 15 cards to improve you only need a fold around 10-12% of the time to make a bet +EV.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

I also think JT is possible on the river, and alot of people at .25/.5 won't valuebet mid pair on the river into 3 opponents.

Re: Nut Flush Draw and Overcards
 

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You think it's most probable that BB turned two pair? He's in a perfect to c/r, and that 9 is not a scare card at all. I'd expect this to just be 8x or 9x a whole lot. The read I want on the river is not on BB. I think we beat him a whole lot. The read I want is on button. I think if button is tight, we have an easy raise. If button is loose, a call looks much better to get the likely overcall.

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I don't have a whole lot of recent micro experience, but in those relatively few hands I've seen this line a lot from a hand like 98 or 92 or whatever--they just see that they turned two pair &amp; can't wait to bet it. I think 9x is also fairly likely, but what can the X be after he peels the flop? Maybe A9, maybe he's loose &amp; bad &amp; just likes to peel.

As far as the button goes, in a scenario like this where it's effectively 3-handed when the action's to me on the river and that river card wasn't a big-time scare card (i.e., flush card or 4-straight on board), I don't really worry too much about the player behind me. He's either calling 1 bet or he's not, and if he is calling 1 then he might call 2 as well. I'm primarily focused on the bettor, his range, how I stack up against it, and how likely he is to pay me off with a worse hand if I raise. If he's going to call the raise with many worse hands, then obviously I want to raise; it gets me the same number of bets (at least) as if I got the overcall. If my range doesn't stack up very well against his, then I'd rather go for the overcall &amp; not open myself up to being 3bet or called by a better hand/have a worse hand fold. If I have no idea about his play (as here), I generally default to the "safer" option, which is flat calling &amp; going for the overcall.