Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

So I was just finishing reading Phil Gordon's Little Blue Book. At the end of the book he has section called A Short Guide To Poker Jargon. There he describes something he calles FPS or fance play syndrome. He says:
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An expensive tendency, espicially evident in players who have just read Sklansky and Malmuth, to overuse "trick" plays like checkraising or semibluffing.

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Is he taking a shot at DS and MM? Seems like he isn't giving them much credit for what they have done.

Also it seems to me that 2+2'ers generally don't like Phil Gordon... Has it anything to do with this?

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

I don't think so, it's very easy to fall into that trap after reading HPFAP if the ideas are new to you.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

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So I was just finishing reading Phil Gordon's Little Blue Book. At the end of the book he has section called A Short Guide To Poker Jargon. There he describes something he calles FPS or fance play syndrome. He says:
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An expensive tendency, espicially evident in players who have just read Sklansky and Malmuth, to overuse "trick" plays like checkraising or semibluffing.

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Is he taking a shot at DS and MM? Seems like he isn't giving them much credit for what they have done.

Also it seems to me that 2+2'ers generally don't like Phil Gordon... Has it anything to do with this?

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He's probably referencing Hold Em Poker for Advanced Players. Players with a beginner/intermediate understanding of poker like Gordon often don't understand or misapply the concepts suggested in the book.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

I don't think Gordon is taking a shot at them. All I think he is saying is that inexperienced players often misapply advanced concepts. If anything I think he's using Malmuth and Sklansky as examples of author's that write about advanced concepts.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

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Players with a beginner/intermediate understanding of poker like Gordon often don't understand or misapply the concepts suggested in the book.

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His LGB really wasn't all that bad for a starter book, but I suspect he'd just drown trying anything advanced. Sklansky's stuff might not be perfect but it was certainly groundbreaking on arrival.

Frankly, with Gordon's vast bankroll, I wonder how well he really does overall. What little of his playing I've seen hasn't been that impressive - and his hands shake like crazy when he's playing. Who knows.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

I don't think that's a shot at all. He's simply saying some players get excited after reading some 2+2 books and over-use some of the concepts they've learned. How is that taking a shot? In fact, in LGB he credits Sklansky IIRC.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

I remember the Fancy Play Syndrome from the SS2 section on LHE by Jennifer Harman. Dunno whom she got it from.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

I'm thinking Gary Carson

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

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I don't think that's a shot at all. He's simply saying some players get excited after reading some 2+2 books and over-use some of the concepts they've learned. How is that taking a shot? In fact, in LGB he credits Sklansky IIRC.

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Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

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I remember the Fancy Play Syndrome from the SS2 section on LHE by Jennifer Harman. Dunno whom she got it from.

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Mike Caro used the term at least 10 years ago. Don't know if he coined it, but a lot of people attribute it to him.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

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I remember the Fancy Play Syndrome from the SS2 section on LHE by Jennifer Harman. Dunno whom she got it from.

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Mike Caro used the term at least 10 years ago. Don't know if he coined it, but a lot of people attribute it to him.

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Lots of people think Mike Caro is a retarded hack columnist, but I don't see people attributing retardation to Mike Caro. He really gets credit for way too much... his contribution to poker knowlege isn't as great as he sells it to be. As time goes on we will look back at Caro and put him in a similar class as other poker greats like Ken Warren and Lou Krieger.

PS: yes, I am cranky today [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

phil gordon is annoying me more then phil hellmuth

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

I have a Mike Caro book in front of me called the Fundamental Secrets of Poker dated 1988. Here is a quote:

"Tip #17. Ego Problem. Many skilled players suffer from FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome). They'd rather impress weak opponents with unexpected plays than beat them with the obvious winning strategy. Avoid FPS"

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

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He really gets credit for way too much... his contribution to poker knowlege isn't as great as he sells it to be. As time goes on we will look back at Caro and put him in a similar class as other poker greats like Ken Warren and Lou Krieger.

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Hollywood portrays poker as being 100% about two things - Outragous bluffs and miniscule tells that only highly experienced voodoo masters can understand.

Mike has played on this general misunderstanding with his "Tells and Poker Psychology" books, videos and seminars.

Now, I don't want to bust Mike's balls too hard. Mike is an old 5 card draw player from back in the day when 5 card draw was the only legal game in the California card rooms. With no flop or board cards and only two rounds of betting, 5 card draw doesn't offer a whole lot of information to the expert player for him to use in hand reading. So if you can't read the hand, then you have to read the player. By focusing on tells and psychology, Mike was doing the best he could with what he had to work with.

Then stud killed draw, and hold'em killed stud. Good players have more information to work with in putting their opponent on a range of hands, even when playing on the internet. But new players still buy Mike's books & videos because Hollywood still pushes the poker myth rather than poker reality.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

I think the keyword in Gordon's sentence is "just". Once you understand what he means by "just", you'll know that he's not taking a shot at Malmuth or Sklansky at all.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

It's okay, I get where he is coming from.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

Why does Phil Gordon think he is an elite poker player? His results aren't that great for the number of tournies he has entered and it seems that most top pros don't respect his game at all.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

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Also it seems to me that 2+2'ers generally player hate Phil Gordon...

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Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

Thanks TT, you said what has been rattling in my mind for a year now. I remember sitting at 9/18 and one person didn't know who Caro was, and we all laughed at him. But to think of it, I never liked what he wrote, I never made it out of the aisle of Borders with any of his books except for "Tells," which has collected dust.

Re: Phil Gordon on Malmuth and Sklansky
 

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Also it seems to me that 2+2'ers generally player hate Phil Gordon...

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the guy has a personality of a 75 year old nit at times, and at other times he is quite affable; problem is he is always the 75 year old nit at precisely the wrong times. If you watched the WSOP final table video feed his reporting wasn't 1/2 bad and he was quite entertaining; but he was incredibly sour. He made Helmuth look really good (not an easy thing to do on TV, in real life he is a big goofball), embarrassed himself by calling the players at the final table idiots and morons at various times, and other foot in mouth gaffs that made him come across like a horse's axx. Its really unfortunate, he acts as if the world owes him respect at the wrong times... perhaps if he got a personality coach we might begin to like him better. One thing is for sure, he knows he is not liked as a person on 2+2.