\"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

Another one of those hard-left America Haters, William F. Buckley, calls on Bush to "acknowledg[e] . . . defeat":

"I can tell you the main reason behind all our woes — it is America." The New York Times reporter is quoting the complaint of a clothing merchant in a Sunni stronghold in Iraq. "Everything that is going on between Sunni and Shiites, the troublemaker in the middle is America."

One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed. The same edition of the paper quotes a fellow of the American Enterprise Institute. Mr. Reuel Marc Gerecht backed the American intervention. He now speaks of the bombing of the especially sacred Shiite mosque in Samara and what that has precipitated in the way of revenge. He concludes that “The bombing has completely demolished” what was being attempted — to bring Sunnis into the defense and interior ministries.

Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans. The great human reserves that call for civil life haven't proved strong enough. No doubt they are latently there, but they have not been able to contend against the ice men who move about in the shadows with bombs and grenades and pistols.

The Iraqis we hear about are first indignant, and then infuriated, that Americans aren't on the scene to protect them and to punish the aggressors. And so they join the clothing merchant who says that everything is the fault of the Americans.

The Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, elucidates on the complaint against Americans. It is not only that the invaders are American, it is that they are "Zionists." It would not be surprising to learn from an anonymously cited American soldier that he can understand why Saddam Hussein was needed to keep the Sunnis and the Shiites from each others' throats.

A problem for American policymakers — for President Bush, ultimately — is to cope with the postulates and decide how to proceed.

One of these postulates, from the beginning, was that the Iraqi people, whatever their tribal differences, would suspend internal divisions in order to get on with life in a political structure that guaranteed them religious freedom.

The accompanying postulate was that the invading American army would succeed in training Iraqi soldiers and policymkers to cope with insurgents bent on violence.

This last did not happen. And the administration has, now, to cope with failure. It can defend itself historically, standing by the inherent reasonableness of the postulates. After all, they govern our policies in Latin America, in Africa, and in much of Asia. The failure in Iraq does not force us to generalize that violence and antidemocratic movements always prevail. It does call on us to adjust to the question, What do we do when we see that the postulates do not prevail — in the absence of interventionist measures (we used these against Hirohito and Hitler) which we simply are not prepared to take? It is healthier for the disillusioned American to concede that in one theater in the Mideast, the postulates didn't work. The alternative would be to abandon the postulates. To do that would be to register a kind of philosophical despair. The killer insurgents are not entitled to blow up the shrine of American idealism.

Mr. Bush has a very difficult internal problem here because to make the kind of concession that is strategically appropriate requires a mitigation of policies he has several times affirmed in high-flown pronouncements. His challenge is to persuade himself that he can submit to a historical reality without forswearing basic commitments in foreign policy.

He will certainly face the current development as military leaders are expected to do: They are called upon to acknowledge a tactical setback, but to insist on the survival of strategic policies.

Yes, but within their own counsels, different plans have to be made. And the kernel here is the acknowledgment of defeat.

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

I saw WFB Jr. talk at my school last. year. He wasn't very funny.

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

Raise the bar.

Impose an artificial time contstraint for a plan to succeed and then label it failure when that artificial deadline isn't met.

Same-o lib dumocrat NOT!ism.

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

As I recall, Bush has made many predictions about the Iraq timeline, all of which have been flat wrong. I also recall him making a statement along the lines of "mission accomplished." Or was that my imagination?

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

i love that.... "mission accomplished." like GW has done something great for America by attacking another country. i forgot it was saddam who bombed us on 9/11, its a good thing we got him! that bin laden guy is no real threat i doubt

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the bar.

Impose an artificial time contstraint for a plan to succeed and then label it failure when that artificial deadline isn't met.

Same-o lib dumocrat NOT!ism.

[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't seriously calling WFB a liberal democrat, are you? If so, I think you need to see a pshrink because you're losing touch with reality, big time.

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

The usual Buckley nonsense, obscured by his virtually unreadable prose. The best I could make out is that Buckley wants Bush to admit the policy failed in Iraq but the general principles are sound. If that's the case, the principles obviously shouldn't be considered general. They failed a generation ago in Vietnam too.

We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Over.
 

You aren't seriously calling WFB a liberal democrat, are you? If so, I think you need to see a pshrink because you're losing touch with reality, big time.
************************************************
It seemed obvious to me he was referring to Elliot as being the liberal democrat setting the artificial deadline. WFB is well known for being a conservative icons so it never entered my mind that he was not referring to Elliot.

The Iraq situation has not played itself out just yet. They haven't even been able to form a govt coalition yet. I think it is too early to tell. There are a lot of good things happening.

*GDP in Iraq has been growing 10% per year despite the oil production being lower than pre-war levels.
*14 of the 18 provinces of Iraq are peaceful.
*We are finnaly getting some Iraqi units which will stand up to the insurgents instead of running a way.
*The insurgents have been alienting the Iraqi population more than winning them over. This attack on the mosque is the act of desparation and not strength. The next few days will be critical.

Their are a lot of troubling things.
(1) There constitution is DEEPLY flawed. There religious council which can veto unislamic laws is a horrible idea. Not only will is creat friction between Sunnis and Shias on whose version of Islam is on this council but laws regarding usury will be instantly vetoed. I read a story of a Turkish man who wanted to invest in his company's 401K. His Iman said earning interest was a sin so that man did not participate. Just imagine the number of financial laws that will be vetoed by this backward thinking.
(2) The bombings are troubling. Will the Iraqis rise up against the insurgents or will they cower in fear. We shall see.

We need to give the new Iraqi govt about 5 years minimum to see if they can govern. No doubt Bush43 has mismanage the Iraq occupation but even on his worse day Bush43 is a better man for the job than Kerry or Gore.

Thomas Friedman had some ineresting thoughts of the mosque bombing. He took it as a sign the USA/Iraq was winning. So we have William F Buckley on one side and Thomas Friedman on the other.

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

[ QUOTE ]
You aren't seriously calling WFB a liberal democrat, are you? If so, I think you need to see a pshrink because you're losing touch with reality, big time.
************************************************
It seemed obvious to me he was referring to Elliot as being the liberal democrat setting the artificial deadline. WFB is well known for being a conservative icons so it never entered my mind that he was not referring to Elliot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? Elliot didn't post anything but the actual article? Was the only purpose to call Elliot names? Very childish if that was the point.

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the bar.

Impose an artificial time contstraint for a plan to succeed and then label it failure when that artificial deadline isn't met.

Same-o lib dumocrat NOT!ism.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may email your comments to Mr. Buckley at [email protected]

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Over.
 

" So we have William F Buckley on one side and Thomas Friedman on the other. "

I seem to have take a trip through the looking glass.

Also from NR's Hanson:

"It is an odd war, because the side that I think is losing garners all the press, whether by blowing up the great golden dome of the Askariya shrine in Samarra, or blowing up an American each day. Yet we hear nothing of the other side that is ever so slowly, shrewdly undermining the enemy. "

If it bleeds, it leads. If it is at all unfavorable for America it will get huge world wide coverage. This may be the most difficult battle in the war to fight.

What I can discover from troops on the ground is not too well correlated with what I read in the press. They are mostly content to complete a mission that is progressing.

That said, I have my doubts. I honestly believe Islamic culture is incompatable with democracy. If it takes this war to prove the point then we have an expensive but powerful lesson.

\"We can\'t stay. We can\'t leave. And we can\'t fail.\"
 

The extent of reality denial in which the war's supporters can engage is indeed astonishing!

[ QUOTE ]
*GDP in Iraq has been growing 10% per year despite the oil production being lower than pre-war levels.

[/ QUOTE ]This is another way of saying "The United States' invasion knocked the GDP of Iraq to its lowest level in decades but it is growing back from that abyss by 10% per year". That's right, we are not impressed.

[ QUOTE ]
*14 of the 18 provinces of Iraq are peaceful.

[/ QUOTE ] Care to re-calculate this in terms of population, please, instead of geographical areas? This is not about the Electoral College in US presidential elections.

[ QUOTE ]
*We are finnaly getting some Iraqi units which will stand up to the insurgents instead of running away.

[/ QUOTE ] Bush recently claimed some nonsense about a hundred or more Iraqi battalions being battle-ready. I put a poll to the 2+2 readership and, wisely, the majority of respondents chose not to believe the president. They thought he was exaggerating, even though they did not know the real number themselves!

Want more about Dubya's credibility? Here's what Bush said on Nov. 4, 2004: "We are making good progress in training the Iraqi troops." That day, he predicted that "125,000 soldiers" would be trained by January 2005. So either the number of trained soldiers has decreased over the last year, or the administration has changed its definition of training!

Solid measurements of progress have also proved to be (let's say) elusive. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] In February 2004, Rumsfeld said that "there are over 210,000 Iraqis serving in the security forces." But in late 2005, Gen. George Casey Jr., who oversees U.S. forces in Iraq, told Congress that the number of Iraqi battalions capable of fighting independently of U.S. troops had dropped from three to one, and that only about 700 Iraqi soldiers were fully capable of fighting without any U.S. logistical support - a statistic that Rumsfeld now dismisses as "a red herring."

Another howler : In early December, 2005, in a speech at the U.S. Naval Academy, President Bush said some 45 Iraqi battalions —each with 750 men— are able to lead combat operations on their own. That means some 33,000 men. But a week earlier, on CNN, Gen. Dempsey, who runs the training effort, stated that about 23,000 Iraqis are battle-ready. That number only accounts for 30 battalions. Either 15 extra battalions graduated during Thanksgiving week, or there are different standards implied by Dempsey and Bush. Take your pick.

[ QUOTE ]
*The insurgents have been alienating the Iraqi population more than winning them over.

[/ QUOTE ] This is patently false. The insurgents are getting more organised, co-ordinated and bold in their actions. This shows that, if anything, their logistics must be improving. Also, their numbers. Both can only be the result of expanding support for the insurgency among Iraqis.

Is time on the insurgents' side or on the American side? Ask yourselves that. (A li'l tip: Which side is under an implicit timeline to giddy-up an' vamoose?)

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

Quote: *14 of the 18 provinces of Iraq are peaceful.

Wow, what a great accomplishment! So in other words, 14 of 18 provinces aren't aren't in the midst of civil strife, daily bombings and headed for disaster.

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Over.
 

Why are so many vets running as dems if the war is so hunky dory?

Why does ann coulter slander our vets? They know the truth.

"The troops like being away from their wives and children and buddies and bars" is a false meme.

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

Was the only purpose to call Elliot names("LIBERAL DEMOCRAT")? Very childish if that was the point.
************************************************** *****
LOL! If someone calls me a conservative republican, I'll puff out my chest and say you're damn RIGHT I AM. But liberals are ashamed to be known as liberals. They prefer names like 'progressive'. LOL! It is like a negro saying, 'I'm not black. I'm an African-American'. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

At least you have enough sense to be ashamed of being a liberal. My hat goes off to you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

[ QUOTE ]
*The insurgents have been alienting the Iraqi population more than winning them over. This attack on the mosque is the act of desparation and not strength. The next few days will be critical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this in part. I do think that normal Iraqis realize that this violence was incited by the Isalmic extremists, either homegrown or imported. They see Americans trying to build infastruture, and these other guys blow it up. They see their police and brothers blown up.

However, what is alarming is I think the recruiting of soliders whose loyalties at one time perhaps tended towards an Iraqi State, but now are willing to kill for Allah is growing. Out of despair breeds this sick fundamentalism. I hope it is, but this isn't a "act of desparation", ("last throes"?)...IMO...

I try not to have hatred, but the enemy is F-ing Sick Mother F-ers. "The next few days will be critical"...typical American thinking, these freaks will wait you out. Cyrus is right, TIME IS ON THEIR SIDE.

Stop thinking in terms of "well most Iraqis are for us..." One obessed, suicidal, 100% commited religious freak is worth 10 regular people. Whether its an election for your local School Board or war in Iraq, these religious fundamentalists are a powerful force. Google Karl Rove.

A wild-eye, mask wearing 20 yr old, building a roadside bomb, praying and fasting all day, with his 16 year old brother posting the bombing on the web both with the moral discipline to not even jack off to vigins in the afterlife since "we'll be there soon enough brother" vs 20 grieving mothers, old men and kind hearted shop keepers?

Buddha said, "Anger is never appeased with Anger, Anger is only appeased with Love.". Or "who would Jesus bomb?". After 9-11, we could have united the world, shown the 16 year old above, when he was 11, the prosperity of the West on the net, the friendship and support a united world, and the HEAD OF OSAMA. But no, Bush decided to shock and awe him to democracy. 2300 dead Americans 100000 dead Iraqis...tragic.

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

He said "dumocrat." I think that qualifies as name-calling.

I see the smiley face, but the difference between calling oneself liberal or progressive is not the same as that between Negro, black, and African American. The latter reflects changing usage (my parents, who were quite liberal, used "colored" when I was growing up); politicians who call themselves progressive today are just recognizing which way the wind is blowing.

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

"politicians who call themselves progressive today are just recognizing which way the wind is blowing. "

It's blowing straight from that stinking heap of liberal Democrat electorial defeat.

Stalin was a Progressive.

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

[ QUOTE ]
At least you have enough sense to be ashamed of being a liberal.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmm...methinks that calling BCPVP a "liberal" is only slightly more nonsensical than calling WFB a "liberal". [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

Anyone who admits victory or defeat in the Iraq/Terror War in this early stage is nieve. Look at world history. It takes at least a decade or more to come to a conclusion for such a clash of cultures this has become.

We are still in the first quarter of a tied football game.

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL! If someone calls me a conservative republican, I'll puff out my chest and say you're damn RIGHT I AM.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know of a clever way to turn the word "Republican" into an insult (maybe there is some use for canis/cardcounter/Quads after all?). But that's what Bluff did. You probably wouldn't be agreeing with the other guy if he called you a [censored] idiot, would you?

[ QUOTE ]
At least you have enough sense to be ashamed of being a liberal. My hat goes off to you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Is it Bizarro Day? I hope this is aimed at Elliot and not me or else you're just as loopy as BluffTHIS!

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

"It's blowing straight from that stinking heap of liberal Democrat electorial defeat."

Exactly what I said.

"Stalin was a Progressive."

Are you saying Liberal Democrats=Stalin?

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
The usual Buckley nonsense, obscured by his virtually unreadable prose. The best I could make out is that Buckley wants Bush to admit the policy failed in Iraq but the general principles are sound. If that's the case, the principles obviously shouldn't be considered general. They failed a generation ago in Vietnam too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the Buckley "nonesense" before coming over here. Was going to post a link without comment figuring you guys might have missed it but finally developed the sense to search this forum first for an ongoing discussion.

In fairness to Buckley I think he's saying ...oh never mind [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, I found this companion piece on the realclearpolitics.com home page. See if you can find the whopper [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

~ Rick

Re: We are still in the first Quarter..............The Game is not Ove
 

""Stalin was a Progressive."

Are you saying Liberal Democrats=Stalin? "

No, only that the idea/lable has gotten some previous use.

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who admits victory or defeat in the Iraq/Terror War in this early stage is nieve. Look at world history. It takes at least a decade or more to come to a conclusion for such a clash of cultures this has become.

We are still in the first quarter of a tied football game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the particular countries involved, isn't it a bit troubling that we, the University of Texas of countries, are tied in the first quarter with, say, the Boise State of countries?

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

Actually from a major war operations point of view the game was a rout, it is the democratic society game that is currently tied.

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually from a major war operations point of view the game was a rout, it is the democratic society game that is currently tied.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't we still the prohibitive favorites in that game, though, too? Isn't this like a 16 seed running with a 1 seed?

Re: \"One can\'t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.\"
 

"You can kill ten of my men for every one I kill of yours. But even at those odds, you will lose and I will win."

-Ho Chi Minh