can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

I know that somethings at poker you can learn. Hand rankings, pot odds, implied odds, blah blah blah. But how about the things within your self? The discipline to quit when you are playing bad, the courage to make the right call with a marginal hand, etc.

I'm asking this because i've made numerous $50 deposits at websites, play good and bring my roll ~180, then lose it all in a couple of hours.

I know in Barry Greenstein's book, "Ace on the River" he lists some characteristics that poker players need. I haven't read the book myself, so i couldn't list them myself, but is it possible to instill those characteristics withing myself?

I love, love, love poker. I love doing numbers, and reading people. I just hate losing money.

Should i just uninstall these poker websites and never play again?

(I know my post is pretty bad, but i'm just so out of it right now. My poker bankroll is gone... AGAIN)

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

If poker is truly a game of skill, then not everyone will have the skills needed to be a winning player. This also depends on the level of poker we are talking about though.
Now, some players can go from losing players to winning players, but this will take studying, hard work, and discipline.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

So I guess that means that only I would know the answer to whether or not I should quit? I feel that I should quit, but at the same time I love playing so much... Should I go to some type of counseling? (christ, i sound so emo. my apologies.)

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess that means that only I would know the answer to whether or not I should quit? I feel that I should quit, but at the same time I love playing so much... Should I go to some type of counseling? (christ, i sound so emo. my apologies.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Play within your bankroll.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel that I should quit, but at the same time I love playing so much... Should I go to some type of counseling? (christ, i sound so emo. my apologies.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Dakevs,

So often when people start asking this question, the answer is yes.

If you feel you should quit, but you can't quit, then the answer is yes.

Good luck to you.

--klez

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

Dakevs,

Perhaps you just need a lot more practice. How about getting a couple of poker simulator games for your PC and get some practice in without losing your cash. The bots are probably better than most internet players anyway!

TM

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess that means that only I would know the answer to whether or not I should quit? I feel that I should quit, but at the same time I love playing so much... Should I go to some type of counseling? (christ, i sound so emo. my apologies.)

[/ QUOTE ]
If you love playing, then play for that reason. I love playing basketball, but I suck! In fact, we have paid money to play basketball. Look at golf: people pay alot of money to play golf. How many are pros or making a living or any money doing it? Only the best of the best. yet, people still dish out mega bucks to play.
Two years ago when I was still losing playing 3/6 poker...I could play all day on 100 bucks and then lose. We would say we had a good time, it was worth it. Id go golfingm pay 100 bucks or more for the day, and hated it. At that point, I said, f this, poker will be my weekend hobby. And it was..just played for fun. If you have the money to do it, go ahead. Also, you might want to check out Psychology of Poker..talks about why we play and stuff.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So I guess that means that only I would know the answer to whether or not I should quit? I feel that I should quit, but at the same time I love playing so much... Should I go to some type of counseling? (christ, i sound so emo. my apologies.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Play within your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Play within your budget. If that means playing $.01/.02, do that. Work at getting better, but expect to lose. If you can't enjoy the game under those conditions, then don't play.

You seem distressed. You should probably stop and do something else at least for a while. Hang out with friends, take your girlfriend to a movie, call your mom, go for a hike, read a non-poker book. There's more to life than poker.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

What games are you playing, and at what levels? If you're making $50 deposits, you might be playing above your bankroll. For example, if you're a sit and go player, and trying to play the 6.50 buy in tourney's, $50 isn't nearly enough, you need at least 30, preferably 50 buy-ins to be fairly safe. Same with limit cash games, you should have at least 150 big blinds, and again preferably much more.

So with $50, you shouldn't be playing any higher than .10/.25 limit games or $1 buy in tourneys. If you're playing higher, not only are you risking your $50 in the short run but it also might affect your play, fearing going busto again.

If you are playing at those levels and still going busto, then I guess you just need to decide how much you want to pay to play poker. But the games are beatable, and you can become a winning player. Just use proper bankroll management, get into games you can afford, especially while your learning, and work on getting better. It takes 10's of thousands of hands, or about a 1,000 tourneys, before you really get past the short term downswings and upswings and establish where you really are as a poker player.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

Good poker can be learned.

Do you have PokerTracker? If not, then you're wasting you time trying to play better on line.

Also, read the Psychology of Poker and take the tests in that book to asses "why" you play. Figure it out, and see what about your personality is contributing to your continuing losses.

Then, post hands in the strat forums.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

Yes

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

Whenever I felt the same way you do it seemed I lost money fast [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Truth is unless your head is in the right place you're not going to be playing good poker and making good decisions.

Learning how to lose I think is the biggest part of poker. When I lose to a bad beat or it seems the cards go cold and there is absolutely nothing I can do to win I take a step back. Usually I just read poker books and don't put any money on the tables til I feel my head is straight. Could be hours could be days :shrug:

And when I sit down at a table and put money out I no longer consider that money mine. It's a out there as a tool to make me money. If I have to risk it all to win money so be it...it's no longer my money.

Good luck though bro [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

I believe anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence can be a winning player. The question is really a matter of level. To put it simply, if you always play against opponents who are worse than you are, you'll be a consistent winner. Of course, if you want to move up, you need to test yourself via trials at higher levels when you're winning consistently at your current one.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dakevs,

Perhaps you just need a lot more practice. How about getting a couple of poker simulator games for your PC and get some practice in without losing your cash. The bots are probably better than most internet players anyway!

TM

[/ QUOTE ]
Well now that sounds interesting. Where does one get a good holdem simulator?

[ QUOTE ]
Play within your budget. If that means playing $.01/.02, do that. Work at getting better, but expect to lose. If you can't enjoy the game under those conditions, then don't play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like good advice.

If you enjoy it, I don't think one should quit...you can always move to lower and lower stakes. Now, if losing at poker is causing you stress and problems in your life rather than serving as a hobby, then quitting or taking a break is probably a good idea.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

thank you all for the advice. it is quite a shot to your pride when you have to go down a limit. the thing that i can't stand playing micro is that some of those people are so bad that i'm on the receiving end of a lot of crazy suckouts.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
thank you all for the advice. it is quite a shot to your pride when you have to go down a limit. the thing that i can't stand playing micro is that some of those people are so bad that i'm on the receiving end of a lot of crazy suckouts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, dakevs, I was sort of in your boat awhile back. I love the game but would lose my hard earned bank roll in a flash. But since I discovered this forum, I think things have changed.

I since purchased pokertracker and am beginning to notice some of my leaks. I still have plenty to plug unfortunately. And I swallowed my pride and moved down to $0.1/$0.25 eventhough I have the bankroll to play higher. And you will be surprised how good some of the players are at that level.

And posting hand histories and posting your answers to other's hand histories helped me tremendously. It forces you to analyze the way the hand was played so you can gain insights to how and why the hand went the way it did.

So if you love the game it wouldn't hurt to move down a leve or two eventhough you can afford the BR and build up your skills there. Good luck!

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

No, not anyone can be a winning player. As with all things in life, some are better than others. Some are not smart enough, some are not disciplined enough, etc.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

Anyone can become a winner at the lowest stakes online.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, not anyone can be a winning player. As with all things in life, some are better than others. Some are not smart enough, some are not disciplined enough, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

My answer is a strong no also. Intelligence and discipline are huge factors - there really are people too dumb to win at any level, even at .01/.02. That probably seems astounding but it's true.

Then you have people Barry Greenstein refers to in his book (and we all have some of those tendencies considered undesirable for poker players).

I think you could say that anyone with a reasonable emotional, intellectual, and financial disposition can become a winning player at some level with some amount of effort. But, if you tilt crazy, get trashed while you play, oconsistently play over your BR (etc), never study or refuse to change up to fix leaks, you could be pretty much doomed to donating for life.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know that somethings at poker you can learn. Hand rankings, pot odds, implied odds, blah blah blah. But how about the things within your self? The discipline to quit when you are playing bad, the courage to make the right call with a marginal hand, etc.

I'm asking this because i've made numerous $50 deposits at websites, play good and bring my roll ~180, then lose it all in a couple of hours.

I know in Barry Greenstein's book, "Ace on the River" he lists some characteristics that poker players need. I haven't read the book myself, so i couldn't list them myself, but is it possible to instill those characteristics withing myself?

I love, love, love poker. I love doing numbers, and reading people. I just hate losing money.

Should i just uninstall these poker websites and never play again?

(I know my post is pretty bad, but i'm just so out of it right now. My poker bankroll is gone... AGAIN)

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people can jump right into big games, and others need to start slowly. Since I couldn't risk a lot of money, I started VERY slowly and methodically.

I started with play money on AOL World Series or Poker. When I could beat that at every level (including a final table in a 3K player tournament), then I switched to Party Poker.

When Party Poker stopped taking US money, I switched to PokerStars, since I wanted to be comfortable with the interface when I switched to real money.

As I move up the play money levels on Stars, I did a complete trial run, including keeping all my results on a spreadsheet. I didn't want to think I could do it, I wanted the facts at hand.

When I started real money at PokerStars, I started at the bottom, .01/02 and $1 sit-n-goes. When I could handle that I would occasionally take shots at multitabling until I could do four tables.

Next, still at micros, I inched my way up, taking shots at .02/05 and $3 turbo SNG, and gradually working more and more of those into my routine.

While I was doing all this I was learning, and building my bankroll. I just got my Frequent Player Points deposit bonus today, but I have really been working on this seriously for a year, going back to AOL. And during this time I have been reading (I seldom go anwhwere where I might be idle without a poker book), as well as posting and reading on here.

I know that it would drive most people crazy to do this as methodically as I have, but I didn't want to screw it up. Once I bump my bankroll up a little more, my next goals will be to hit a certain hourly rate or weekly profit.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

i think its a generalization its like anything in life.
if you really want something you gotta work for it.
Anyone can open theyre own business,but you gotta sacrafice and work hard for it.
You wanna be a winning poker player truthfully,than you ahve to lose,learn,read,study,and spend countless hours playing.
with great sacrafice comes great reward.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think its a generalization its like anything in life.
if you really want something you gotta work for it.
Anyone can open theyre own business,but you gotta sacrafice and work hard for it.
You wanna be a winning poker player truthfully,than you ahve to lose,learn,read,study,and spend countless hours playing.
with great sacrafice comes great reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

That reminds me of a great statement that I heard on Fox News recently. One of their financial guys (not Cavuto) said in a panel discussion (his emphasis), "The people I know that got rich did so by WORKING."

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

Remember over 90% of all players are losers so the odds are you are one of them.
If you enjoy playing & treat it as your hobby then it doesnt matter what you lose as long as you can afford the cost.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

Anyone can be a winner if they really want to. I think your problem is not playing under your bankroll.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone can be a winner if they really want to. I think your problem is not playing under your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]
It poker is truly a skill game, then this simply cant be true.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone can be a winner if they really want to. I think your problem is not playing under your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]
It poker is truly a skill game, then this simply cant be true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it can. So many people out there don't care and just want to have fun, that whoever you are, you can get good enough to be a winning player. What I'm saying is, if I had a list of every single person who has ever played a hand of poker, then I could pick anyone and turn them into a winning player.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

I don't think anyone can be a winning poker player. I think most people can but don't choose to work hard at it. You have 2 choices:

1) Play for fun, just lose money you can afford to lose.

2) Pick a form of poker, study, post hands, review your play, maintain bank roll management once you play at a level you can't easily replace the money, read books, post replies to hands, rinse and repeat.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I guess that means that only I would know the answer to whether or not I should quit? I feel that I should quit, but at the same time I love playing so much... Should I go to some type of counseling? (christ, i sound so emo. my apologies.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do love the game, I see no point in quitting. Why should you quit doing something you like? I don't see the point. Poker is a game of skill. If you are a loosing player, you just have to study more (and play more).

Of course, along your way to become a winning player, you gotta stay diciplined enough to only play for small money you can afford to loose with a smile. An alternative is of course play money.

Take myself, for instance. I'm a loosing player. So what? The more I play the better I get. I like playing it. So I don't quit. Instead I try to study and learn. Of course I only do that because I like to play the game, and it's more fun when you master it (like every other game).

I believe all loosing players can turn into winners. It's not like some people are doomed forever in this game, although I know the feeling.

Yes, some people don't have what it takes to get to the very top, becoming millionares and superstars.

But I think all people can turn into winners overall, if they just study hard enough and have the will.

Like Phil Gordon says: "I don't have to be the greatest. I just have to be better than a few of my opponents at the table".

I can, and you can. It may take time, but if we stay focused, we are going to get there.

When you read poker books, hang out on this forum, analyze your hands and always look out for ways to improve, you will ALLWAYS have an edge as opposed to people who don't. And there's lots of them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Take care,

Karl

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

any1 can be a winner, just keep trying when i first started playing sit and goes i losed but then i remember hearing people making a living from it, so it could be done, i went and read some books then, then went back then read some more books and so on. Now i am at the stage of having to do this for cash games, its hard work but if you put in the effort you can do it anyone can.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good poker can be learned.

Do you have PokerTracker? If not, then you're wasting you time trying to play better on line.

Also, read the Psychology of Poker and take the tests in that book to asses "why" you play. Figure it out, and see what about your personality is contributing to your continuing losses.

Then, post hands in the strat forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best advice in this thread. If you don't know why you aren't winning (both from a personality perspective - PoP - and from a quality of play perspective - PT and strat posts) you'll never get better.

Just remember, it takes time. Lots of time most likely.

Re: can anyone be a winning poker player?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know that somethings at poker you can learn. Hand rankings, pot odds, implied odds, blah blah blah. But how about the things within your self? The discipline to quit when you are playing bad, the courage to make the right call with a marginal hand, etc.

I'm asking this because i've made numerous $50 deposits at websites, play good and bring my roll ~180, then lose it all in a couple of hours.

I know in Barry Greenstein's book, "Ace on the River" he lists some characteristics that poker players need. I haven't read the book myself, so i couldn't list them myself, but is it possible to instill those characteristics withing myself?

I love, love, love poker. I love doing numbers, and reading people. I just hate losing money.

Should i just uninstall these poker websites and never play again?

(I know my post is pretty bad, but i'm just so out of it right now. My poker bankroll is gone... AGAIN)

[/ QUOTE ]

Two more thoughts about your post.

First, you lost $180 in a couple hours? YOU'RE PLAYING WAY TOO HIGH, OR PLAYING MORE TABLES THAN YOU CAN HANDLE.

I lost three $50 deposits, but it took me hundreds of hours of playing, and the bankroll lasted a little longer each time.

I broke $100 for my bankroll last week, which was also the first week I made over $10. I profited $20.73 last week, I have permanently moved up from .01/.02 to .02/.05, and I don't expect to be making any more deposits, unless I'm bonus whoring someplace.

But again, it took me hours and hours and hours of grinding at the lowest microlimit games and one-table tournaments to get here. You haven't given yourself enough time, or played within your bankroll long enough, to give yourself a chance.

SECOND--EVERYTHING MATTERS.

Work on everything, maybe a different thing each week. Do you have a good starting hand list in your head for an average of 7 seeing the flop? How about 4? What about a very tight game?

Pot odds? Implied odds? Game selection? Best time to play? When to get out?

Anything at which you get better, any weapon in your arsenal, gives you one more edge.

A perfect example of working every edge happened to me today.

I joined a cash game, $10 max buy-in, where one guy had $10.53, everyone else was $5 and under. I liked the table, both the see-the-flop percentage (45%) and the underfunded, probably bad players. That's table selection, and it matters.

Next, I had two seats to pick from, and I put the big stack on my immediate right. That's seat selection.

But the big stack was no dummy. He left the room 5 sections after I entered, and I doubt that it was a coincidence. He probably understood everything that I did, and went looking for a bunch of underfunded fish that could be pushed around (and where a big stack wouldn't be on his left), just as I was doing.

Summary: Be more patient, play within your bankroll, work on all aspects of your game, and you'll almost certainly be a winning player at least at the lower levels.