calling for str8 on paired flop
 

No particular reads other than typical loose passive.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (12.20 BB) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP2 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

River: (26.20 BB) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP2 raises, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, MP2 caps, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 36.20 BB

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

I lot of people here say that preflop is good. But I really belive it's a losing play unless you can play postflop very well.

You definately need to let this hand go at some point.... I'm not sure if that point is on the flop or the turn though.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

niediam, lol? this is the most standard preflop call ever

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
niediam, lol? this is the most standard preflop call ever

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why do the books Small Stakes Hold'em, Middle Limit Hold'em, and Winning Low Limit Hold'em all say to fold it?

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

i definitely call preflop. niediam, i agree that we must proceed cautiously after the flop, but i'm not seeing a fold here.

no reason to believe we're in particularly bad shape after the first flop bet and raise. after it goes 3bet and cap, things are scarier, but now the pot is big and no one else can raise.

since we're here and we hit, i like the turn c/r. mp2's check/3bet and co's cap are absolutely terrifying and this is where you fold without a fairly specific read.

i wish you had stopped the action at your third turn decision, though, because the river action may be affecting me.

your river donk is pretty lol.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

it says fold jack-ten getting what, 6:1 or 7:1 pf in what's going to be a 4way pot, with great relative position?

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

I call here. I think its an easy call.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

that's a call without even thinking about it, imo

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

postflop is the important part in this thread though so let's focus on that

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
it says fold jack-ten getting what, 6:1 or 7:1 pf in what's going to be a 4way pot, with great relative position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

I'm not saying that this should always be folded. I'm saying its -EV if you can't play well postflop. I would honestly guess that the average 2+2er loses money with the call. But OP clearly isn't ready to play the hand. Look at how he played the rest of the hand. Do you really think that in the long run (based upon his current skills) he is going to do better than -0.50BB by playing here?

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

Why are you donking the river. Turn is a fold against sane opponents. Even if MP2 is overplaying AK or something, MP2 should have the boat.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

niediam i think you're being results oriented because postflop came trickily, but that's unrelated to the pf. the pf call in a vacuum isn't even close.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
niediam i think you're being results oriented because postflop came trickily, but that's unrelated to the pf. the pf call in a vacuum isn't even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why does SSH and other books say to fold?

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

Because SSHE was designed for tables where people raise basically JJ+, if that, and the rest of the books are for weak-tight weenies.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because SSHE was designed for tables where people raise basically JJ+, if that, and the rest of the books are for weak-tight weenies.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true then why does SSH have us 3betting (in loose games) 99-JJ, AK, and AQ?

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

I think PF is horrible, but other than that...

You get the right odds on the flop the first time around (I'd actually even raise this sometimes), but when it's another two back to you again, it's pretty tough to decide whether to continue or to let go of this.

SSHE says that drawing dead is not as bad as it sounds, but here it really is. You paid 8 BB to see the showdown hoping to win 36, which is still plenty, but not enough for me against two people capping all streets.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

If they are all loose-passive I would call preflop, otherwise fold. With aggressive players its though to play. What do the other players have? Flush draw is possible (probably UTG), but MP2 more likely has something with KQ, AQ, AK or QQ, KK, CO might have anything with K because just called pf. I would probably bet the flop and would fold with all the action behind. There are too many hands out there to beat me even if I caught the str8 on the turn.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

Calling 1 more in the BB pf with JTs doesnt seem like spew to me. Most people know that they are not playing JT for pair value in a raised pot, so a lot of the trouble you might get into playing 'weak' hands is avoided.

I would be looking to fold when the hand gets bat-[censored] crazy on the flop. If you are playing with people that are not drooling on themselves, then your up against any of the following: Quads, a set, a boat, a flush draw, and the nut strt draw.

Calling the first 2 cold in that position may be OK, but when it is two back to me, I begin to wonder how many outs I have, if any. you may have 6 outs, and since KK, QQ and KQ are a pretty big part of even the biggest donkeys PFR range, you could be drawing dead.

So, I would most likely fold for the 2nd 2 bets on the flop.

When it is 4 bets on the turn, I assume my hand is no goot, unless I am playing with someone who I know is capable of getting crazy with a trips, cuz that is pretty much the only hand you are beating. Plus, MP2 ck raised the turn, and CO capped it, inspite of being ck-raised by TWO different people.

T

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

I fold for the first two on the flop, and as played probably fold to the turn cap. You're getting about breakeven odds on your straight IF it would always win but it's tainted on multiple fronts. You have to realize that an A is more likely than usual to give someone a boat here (if pfr doesn't already have one). All three river decisions are wrong.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

SSHE says call JT in BB but as some here say, if you're not very comfortable post flop it's easy to get into trouble. When it's bet and raised infront of me on a flop with two overcards, one of the paired, in two suits and I could be drawing to a chop (or be dead if another K or Q falls) quite often I look for a reason to fold. Irl, that fold can be hard to find when the pot is growing, but getting stuck in the middle of a raising war is not fun either.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

Thanks for all the feedback. I believed at the time that PF call was maybe just break-even. I am making pf calls like that here to work on my postflop game. I fold this at live 2/4.

The river donk was not well thought out, thanks for the honestly on that, but he result was interesting in that I had one of the crazy cappers beat, CO had KJ. MP2 had QQ.

I am training for a week in Vegas at xmas. Is Stars .25/.50 a reasonable training ground? Do I need to go lower to find the same loose passive conditions? My only live experience is TurningStone where the 2/4 is much looser imo.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...esultsDog2.jpg

and your thread was going so well, too! just don't do it again.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

I fold pf. Not closing action, weak easily dominated hand etc. I fold the flop. I fold the turn to cap.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

I care about results.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I care about results.

[/ QUOTE ]

you shouldn't.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am training for a week in Vegas at xmas. Is Stars .25/.50 a reasonable training ground? Do I need to go lower to find the same loose passive conditions? My only live experience is TurningStone where the 2/4 is much looser imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would suggest the exact right level, but unfortunately, no online site spreads games in quarter-penny/half-penny.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

PF is fine. You're getting 7-1 (once UTG comes in for another bet), and have good relative position to the likely flop bettor. However, with most flops that "hit" you, you'll not be check-raising because your hand will be vulnerable, and in this spot you'll not be protecting your hand but padding the pot for a multi-way turn card. So, relative position isn't so important here. Anyway, 7-1 is enough for JTo, but you will need to play well post-flop.

You've got the idiot end of an OESD on a paired, two-flush board. Checking here is OK - I'd like to see if I can get a cheap price on my weak draw.

Hmm, it's two cold to us. This is where I would have stopped the action. It's a critical juncture in the hand. How big is the pot? 11.4 small bets and we have to call two - with the potential for it to be raised again. We are probably running a pot equity deficit here, so we -really- don't want to put in 3 or four bets. Is 5.7-1 good enough for our draw? I don't think it is, especially considering the chance we will probably be raised again.

How much of a dog are you against trips? How much of a dog are you against just an overcard and a flush draw? Don't know? Here you go:

Against a K: A little worse than a 3-1 dog.
Against A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]: A little worse than a 2-1 dog.
Against both: 6.3-1 dog.

It's the "horserace" lesson here. You might have enough to call against any -single- hand, but the combination of ranges is too much.

I'd fold the flop. If the pot were much bigger, I might call two cold here, but this draw is pretty weak.

Turn: MP2 pulls a check-raise 3-bet out of his ass here. Given the cap on the flop by CO, MP2 clearly went into this round intending on trapping the field. Making your hand while you are drawing dead is one of the worst places you can be - and the thought should have crossed your mind before you called the flop raise.

The river donk bet is spew. Everything after the cold-call of the flop raise is pretty suspect.

----

The types of flops you want to see in multiway pots when playing JTo from the big blind are ones that don't put big hands/draws on the board, but connect with you in some way. If the flop were KQ5 rainbow, then it would clearly be OK to call the raise, and possibly even so with two suited cards on the board.

If you don't play medium offsuit connectors well in multi-way pots, then just fold pre-flop. When evaluating any hand pre-flop, you have to estimate it's money-making potential post-flop. A chart will NOT tell you this.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

ego,

there's a lot of weak/tight and otherwise strange advice in your post, like this:

[ QUOTE ]
Against a K: A little worse than a 3-1 dog.
Against A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]: A little worse than a 2-1 dog.
Against both: 6.3-1 dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

where did these numbers come from? you're gonna have to show your work, i'm sure.

but anyway, this was my favorite part:

[ QUOTE ]
You've got the idiot end of an OESD on a paired, two-flush board.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're worried about spiking an A and then losing to the ol' 3-high straight (QKA23)?

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

pf fine...IF you dont get married to TP mediocre kicker. flop ok.

fold the turn after it gets capped.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

Thinking back to the river donk, the thought going through my mind was that these guys are going to cap it and I planned to call it down anyway, so I bet out thinking it made no difference except that if they didn't have the nuts they might slow down. I also thought there was a small chance they both had AK or worse. I planned to see the river because I called for the str8 and then actually hit it. Late-night logic I guess.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

Fold the flop.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
ego,

there's a lot of weak/tight and otherwise strange advice in your post, like this:

[ QUOTE ]
Against a K: A little worse than a 3-1 dog.
Against A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]: A little worse than a 2-1 dog.
Against both: 6.3-1 dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

where did these numbers come from? you're gonna have to show your work, i'm sure.

but anyway, this was my favorite part:

[ QUOTE ]
You've got the idiot end of an OESD on a paired, two-flush board.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're worried about spiking an A and then losing to the ol' 3-high straight (QKA23)?

[/ QUOTE ]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>

Calculation results from Poker Calculator 1.1.4.1
Texas Hold'em, 39732 combinations tested.

Board: QsKsKh x x

Hand | JsTc | As2s | Kdx |
------+--------------+--------------+--------------+
Win | 5367 | 8748 | 25506 |
Draw | 90 | 21 | 111 |
Lose | 34275 | 30963 | 14115 |
------+--------------+--------------+--------------+
Win% | 13.62% | 22.04% | 64.33% |
------+--------------+--------------+--------------+


JsTc:
Pair win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 12474
Two Pair win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 12726
Three of a Kind win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 1134
Straight win: 5325 draw: 90 lose: 6051
Flush win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 1134
Full House win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 756
Straight Flush win: 42 draw: 0 lose: 0


As2s:
Pair win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 12348
Two Pair win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 12012
Three of a Kind win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 1092
Straight win: 186 draw: 18 lose: 48
Flush win: 8442 draw: 0 lose: 4830
Full House win: 120 draw: 3 lose: 633


Kdx:
Three of a Kind win: 9582 draw: 0 lose: 13737
Straight win: 0 draw: 108 lose: 81
Flush win: 0 draw: 0 lose: 168
Full House win: 13213 draw: 3 lose: 128
Quads win: 2711 draw: 0 lose: 1
</pre><hr />

All possible turn/river cards and possible off cards for the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hand were enumerated.

Of course I'm not worried about a higher straight beating us - but splitting is another matter. Also, whenever your straight draw is on the upper end of the 5-cards needed to make the straight, you have an extra chance to win by making a pair.

Yes, my advice here is weak/tight - but it's correct in this situation. The OP suggested no reads other than typical loose/passive. Having a weak draw in a hand where two LP's are having a raising war is certainly enough reason to consider folding early, rather than making a hand and losing a ton of bets to a better hand.

There's alot going on in this hand, and my read was correct. One player did have a K, the other had the second nuts, and Hero was drawing nearly dead, and put in 10 big bets with only a runner-runner straight flush draw to bail him out.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I'm not worried about a higher straight beating us - but splitting is another matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude

listen to yourself, "I'm devaluing my straight draw because someone else might have the same two cards even though I have no reason to put someone on that hand"

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

I call preflop and fold on the flop when it's two bets cold. This just isn't a very good spot for a straight draw. You call the field loose passive and you're not getting great odds here to chase (11:2 on 6ish outs). You need to worry a little about the ace as an out (AK), but your 9 looks pretty safe. Spades are a little bit of a worry, but not as much as seeing a Q/J/T come on the turn/river as that's a very boat-y board.

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course I'm not worried about a higher straight beating us - but splitting is another matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude

listen to yourself, "I'm devaluing my straight draw because someone else might have the same two cards even though I have no reason to put someone on that hand"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Not by much, though. Not more than a passing thought (I beat x hands, I tie x hands, I lose against x hands), and it's really not a key decision here. I'd argue that the possibility of a split certainly doesn't make my hand better... does it? Like I said, though, it doesn't matter.

My comment was directed at the use of the phrase "idiot end", which I perhaps define differently, and I should have phrased it less glibly. In micro-limit hold'em online, where even the tight players don't fold, you need to weigh your chances with any draw tempered with the ability to make a winning pair. With a J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] board I'm more likely to play with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in this spot because I've got a better chance of making the best hand with a pair. Both straights draw to the nut straight, but one is clearly better. The worse of these I'd call the "idiot-end". (Notice that splitting in either case doesn't really matter much.) It might not be the classic definition of the term, but in micros, I use it as such.

In a higher limit game, I wouldn't worry about it too much, because I'd expect to have much better reads other than "typical loose passive." No fault to the OP, though, because often these are the only real reads you can have at .25/.50.

I like to think about poker, and when I do post in these forums, try to find hands to respond to where my advice will cut against the grain.

I think this hand is instructive. With a draw you'll usually want more, rather than less players - particularly with a hand that can't "buy any outs" - but the reverse is clearly more true here. I read about the "horserace" concept in a book sometime recently (forgot which of the 2+2 titles it was), and this hand seemed to apply. The OP could draw against either a Kx or a flush draw, but not both. This concept seems far more interesting than my possibly unacceptable usage of the term "idiot end".

Re: calling for str8 on paired flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
My comment was directed at the use of the phrase "idiot end", which I perhaps define differently, and I should have phrased it less glibly. In micro-limit hold'em online, where even the tight players don't fold, you need to weigh your chances with any draw tempered with the ability to make a winning pair. With a J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] board I'm more likely to play with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in this spot because I've got a better chance of making the best hand with a pair. Both straights draw to the nut straight, but one is clearly better. The worse of these I'd call the "idiot-end". (Notice that splitting in either case doesn't really matter much.) It might not be the classic definition of the term, but in micros, I use it as such.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unlearn this, then. "Idiot end" and its synonyms apply only to the phenomenon of making your straight and still losing, whether it's because the same card makes your opponent a higher one, or he still has a draw/redraw to a higher one.

Since all straights here are to the nuts, it doesn't matter here. But obviously a draw with overcards is stronger than one without, so say that.