two quick hands with pp
 

OK, after registering a while ago, I have my first hand post! yeah!

Playing 3/6 B&M, about 4.5 hours into session.

Table is very loose and passive, even for a live table. Regularly 8+ to the flop, pre-flop raise about 1/3 hands. Occasionally and at random, real poker players show up and there are 4 or less to the flop, but this is about once per orbit.

For any paying attention, I have played a very aggresive game and shown either very strong (set or better) or very weak (complete bluff) hands with very little in between. I have a large stack in from of me (about 60 BB, table average is about 15)

General hand ranges throughout the table are pretty wide, anything suited, anything connected, any ace and and any two >9.

Hand one

I am UTG with 44. I limp and 4 other limpers to the button who raises. All call and its 8 to the flop.

2-3-6 Rainbow.

Looks like a flop that should have missed everyone. Checked to me and I bet. A few calls and then the CO (an old nit) raises. The button and blinds fold. Now, I may have the best hand (if anyone but this player was the raiser I would say its >50%) but I probably don't just due to the player. However, IF I don't then I certainly have outs as this particular player is not one to see a flop with 4-5 in his position; the question is how many? I figure a little less than 6 outs, but factoring in the small possibility that I am already ahead I make it 6 outs. I raise to protect my hand. It folds to him who calls and the pot is heads up.

Turn - 4

OK, I hit one of my outs and it goes bet-call

River - Q (no flush board)

Bet (planning on folding to a raise, but probably wouldn't anyways) and he calls.



Hand 2

Very next hand.

I am big blind with 88d. Three limpers to me and I check.

Flop comes 7-6-5 with two diamonds.

Fantastic!

I bet, next player (MP) raises and it folds to me. I three bet and its called.

Turn is a 2 and I bet and she calls.

River is a J (no flush board) and I bet and she calls.

Comments?

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

you 3 bet the flop in hand 1? thats awful spew. rest is fine.

hand 2 is also a flop spew against a lot of players, particularly passive ones. i know a few who'll only raise a straight on this flop. its a good 3 bet against aggressive players. whats your read on MP?

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

I think you played these fine.

I think the main debate is the 3-bet in hand 1, and that depends on how often you think you are ahead. My thinking is that if he is truly an old nit then you are ahead here never. In that case, since you are not likely to win without hitting your draw, but are very likely to win if you do hit, protecting your hand is counterproductive.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

The reasoning behind 3 betting the flop in hand one is similar to why I'd raise a flop bet with a hand like 88 - I want to face the field with calling 2 bets. Since everyone has already called my first bet, simply calling the raise lets them carry on. Also, preflop and flop raises were not respected at the table, but three bets were. In 5 hours, I never saw a single cap on any street. Finally, even though I'm out of position, if an out doesn't come on the turn I can get a free card with very high probability against this player, and in fact most of the table had they called. While I figure there is a small chance of being ahead, the chance it holds up against 6 others by the river is zero.

For hand two, my opponent would have raised (in my mind) with any of the following: K-7 or better, 2 pair, a naked 8, a straight and a set, with the following hands by far the most likely A-7 and 8-7 (wrong and wrong). I'd figure her to cap with a straight (which she did not have), so I kept leading.

For perspective on what raises mean at this table: A preflop raise was made UTG and was called by 5 peaople including both blinds. Flop turn and River were checked through, yes 5 ways. Winning hand unimproved A2 by the small blind

As it happens, both these opponents were ridiculously passive. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

Hand 1: You have a gutshot. c/c flop. A bet/call line is fine too. Bet/3-town is absolute spew.

As played, the turn is fine but c/c the river. Folding in a pot this size is lighting money on fire.

Hand 2:
I raise preflop, but a check is fine and that should depend on your relative post-flop skills.

Rest of the hand is fine.

Note: Hand 1 shows that you are mis-applying alot of logic. Re-read whatever resources you have.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

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hand 2 is also a flop spew against a lot of players, particularly passive ones. i know a few who'll only raise a straight on this flop. its a good 3 bet against aggressive players. whats your read on MP?

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Hand 2's 3-bet isn't that bad without a read. You are likely ahead of villain's range and you have a signficiant number of outs against 2 pairs that mitigate the range you are behind.

I'm at work, but if villain's range is something like 7x, A6, 2 pair, set, combo draw, 44, 99, TT we are ahead enough of the range to 3-bet. I'll stove this later.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

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The reasoning behind 3 betting the flop in hand one is similar to why I'd raise a flop bet with a hand like 88 - I want to face the field with calling 2 bets.

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Given that this was your goal, you should have not bet out, but rather checked and hoped that the button, the original PFR, would bet, giving you the opportunity to CR the entire field and face them with 2 cold.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

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The reasoning behind 3 betting the flop in hand one is similar to why I'd raise a flop bet with a hand like 88 - I want to face the field with calling 2 bets.

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Given that this was your goal, you should have not bet out, but rather checked and hoped that the button, the original PFR, would bet, giving you the opportunity to CR the entire field and face them with 2 cold.

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Kit is correct in therms of method, but this goal sucks. Your hand is a "made hand" but it suffers from hating every card in the deck except 6/5/4 that your are drawing too. Keep people in so they can pay you off and improve the equity of your call.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

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Kit is correct in therms of method, but this goal sucks. Your hand is a "made hand" but it suffers from hating every card in the deck except 6/5/4 that your are drawing too. Keep people in so they can pay you off and improve the equity of your call.

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i agree.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

Forgot. Welcome to the forums!

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

Hand 1:
[ QUOTE ]

Looks like a flop that should have missed everyone.


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It should have missed everyone, if they were playing well, but they aren’t. Don’t assume this missed everyone. There are lots of players that will play any Ax, Kx and the ‘x’ could pair the board here. Lots of players will play small connectors or one gapers, especially if they are suited. In a B&M 3/6 game with 6 or 8 people seeing the flop, I would never assume this flop missed everyone.

On the flop I think you need to check/call. The flop raise doesn’t make any sense in your position. If you don’t hit any of your outs on the turn, are you going to bet the turn?

Hand 2:

Middle pocket pairs are always tricky to play out of position. Absent some read on the player, this looks ok against a total unknown.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

I can remove a couple hands from your list based on her raise. She doesn't have A6, 44, 99 or TT. The first two she calls and the last two she PFR's. With everyone playing any ace I really weighted her hand to be A7 (and nothing on the turn or river contradicts this). I did forget to include a flush draw, but I never saw her on one which means she ~probably~ wouldn't raise that either; a combo draw would likely be seen as nothing more than a bonus to a flush draw but again not enough info to tell here so it should be included I suppose.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

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She doesn't have A6, 44, 99 or TT. The first two she calls and the last two she PFR's.

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A6 is a the lowest hand in a range I chose to cut off at. On an unknown, it's definitely within range. 99 or TT are standard preflop calls in MP for most 3/6 Live players. If you had further information that said otherwise, good for you, but that wasn't provided in the original post.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

Absoulutely I wanted to check raise. Unfortunately I had attempted this 3 times in the session only to have my monster checked through and lose a ton of equity. While I certainly dont think I have a monster here, I didn't think the attempt would work and felt (incorrectly, sure) I had enough equity to put a bet in so didn't check it.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

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Absoulutely I wanted to check raise. Unfortunately I had attempted this 3 times in the session only to have my monster checked through and lose a ton of equity. While I certainly dont think I have a monster here, I didn't think the attempt would work and felt (incorrectly, sure) I had enough equity to put a bet in so didn't check it.

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so if you bet, and 5 people called, and the turn didnt give you a straight or trips, you're still betting?

why wouldnt you want this checked around when its likely you're still drawing? even if you're somehow ahead on the flop, you're going to lose anyways if you dont improve.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

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The reasoning behind 3 betting the flop in hand one is similar to why I'd raise a flop bet with a hand like 88 - I want to face the field with calling 2 bets. Since everyone has already called my first bet, simply calling the raise lets them carry on. Also, preflop and flop raises were not respected at the table, but three bets were. In 5 hours, I never saw a single cap on any street. Finally, even though I'm out of position, if an out doesn't come on the turn I can get a free card with very high probability against this player, and in fact most of the table had they called. While I figure there is a small chance of being ahead, the chance it holds up against 6 others by the river is zero.


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I agree that the chance 44 is best and will hold up unimproved is almost zero. You need to hit one of your 6 outs to win. The problem I see with the 3 bet is you are folding out the hands that have little chance of beating you if you hit one of your 6 outs. The hands that might beat your straight or set are not going to fold. Let them stay in and maybe they will pick up something and pay you off on the turn or river. You are only going to hit one of your 6 outs on the turn about 1 out of 8 times, so raising here is –EV.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

If I 3 bet this, get called in more than one spot and dont improve, I check fold, BUT, it would only come to this if one of the other players did have the straight. I can tell you with 99% cetainty that the flop raiser dosen't have the straight, and is afraid enough of a checkraise that he wouldn't bet anything else after I show that strength. This was in effect a second reason for the 3 bet that is being overlooked. The norm is to raise for a free card when you have position, but against super-nits like this it does work out of position as well. Of course with this info, I should have realized that I didn't have 6 outs, but less. Yes, I caught the wrong one.

Re: two quick hands with pp
 

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She doesn't have A6, 44, 99 or TT. The first two she calls and the last two she PFR's.

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A6 is a the lowest hand in a range I chose to cut off at. On an unknown, it's definitely within range. 99 or TT are standard preflop calls in MP for most 3/6 Live players. If you had further information that said otherwise, good for you, but that wasn't provided in the original post.

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Right, which is why I'm providing that now. While all these hands are in her ~playing~ range, based on her action at the time I played the hand I didn't consider them, and for reasons as stated. I somewhat agree that 99 is a limping hand for most and could be included if it could be discounted to some degree, but I haven't come across too many that dont put in a first raise with TT, unless they are in the blinds.