Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

Late in a large No Limit Hold 'Em tournament. Blinds 1000-2000. You have 118,000 chips and are one of the chip leaders. It is folded around to the cutoff who goes all in for his last 10,000 chips. He is a good tournament player. SB folds.

You are in the BB and hold: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

This question is taken from the Donkey Test website, and is being discussed in the Beginner's Forum.

I think a good case can be made either way, but I lean more toward a fold here based on what I recently read in NLHTAP. Here is what my response was in the other thread:

===========================================

I answered "fold" on this one, but thought I might be wrong, so I looked it up. I don't understand the math behind this, but if you read the end of NLHTAP you will find a chart that answers this question. The pertinent information is that you are having to call $8k to a heads-up all-in with a pot of $13k. You are getting just a tad over 3:2 pot odds, so it is wrong to call if the all-in player is pushing with much better than any 2 cards.

Specifically, DS says it is wrong to call with T5o getting 3:2 on your money if your opponent is pushing with: AA-22, AK-A2, Any two cards 7 or higher (e.g. T7), K6-K4, and K3s-K2s

If he is pushing with a lot more than that (any two cards), then you can call.

I don't think the CO would be pushing with much less than that, since they have just passed the blinds and can afford to wait a few hands for a better hand to push with.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

I think it was Harrington in HoH II (or maybe I?), who uses a simple rule for these situations -
As long as I have 10times the chip count of the small stack I call this with any 2 cards - because he weights the elimination factor high (late in a tournament).
So till now I found this rule very usefull and acted accordingly - thats why this is a call for me.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think it was Harrington in HoH II (or maybe I?), who uses a simple rule for these situations -
As long as I have 10times the chip count of the small stack I call this with any 2 cards - because he weights the elimination factor high (late in a tournament).
So till now I found this rule very usefull and acted accordingly - thats why this is a call for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the general rule I use and why I call here 100% as well. You may have 2 live cards and you are not killed against most hands he would push here.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

didnt harrington say he would "put them all-in" not call all-in? cause the extra fold equity obviously weighs in heavily.

Anyway:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.251% 41.86% 02.39% 10535890248 602458206.00 { T5o }
Hand 1: 55.749% 53.36% 02.39% 13430062140 602458206.00 { random }

And villain has exactly that here, a random hand. The spot is great for him to push after so many ppl are already out and first in vigorish and folders before you are so much more important than the actual card.
I would push here in his spot 100% of the time.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

No he said if you have a large stack and are squarely in the green zone call with ATC 100% if it costs you less than 10% of your stack to call. Equity for moving up in payouts trumps the times you lose the small pot. You may be in a relative coinflip as the shortstack could have also pushed with ATC.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

I believe that Harrington said that with 10x, he would call any all-in.

In this particular example, it's an easy decision to call, I think, since the player's range is so wide. If he's a good player and everyone has folded to him and his M is 3.33, he's going to go all-in with almost anything.

There is one consideration that I haven't seen mentioned. If he's a good tournament player, he's noticed that you have a big stack and are likely to call him, so that would narrow his range and possibly affect the decision.

Still, I think it's a call.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

well moving up the ladder != late in tournament.. we might well be only in top30 by now and I surely wouldnt pay off any all - even if only for 5-10% of my stack - because eliminating someone isnt worth much until the final table

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

I vote call because:

1. The 10% rule and elimination premium
2. Also, here the villain puts in 10K in a ~5K pot, so 15K and you have to call 8K. So it's close to 2:1 and I use the 2:1 rule that HOH mentions also.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

Harrington said that with regards to headsup play I'm fairly sure...

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Harrington said that with regards to headsup play I'm fairly sure...

[/ QUOTE ]

Heads up it is definitely a no brainer but Harrington refers to it in the late stages of the tourney the 10% rule applies AS LONG as you are well in the green zone and your M and Q are high in relation to the rest of the table.

Anyway:

Better than 2 to 1
Prob have 2 live cards
Can eliminate a player LATE in tourney
risking less that 10%
One of the chipleaders


How could this even remotely be a fold?

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
didnt harrington say he would "put them all-in" not call all-in? cause the extra fold equity obviously weighs in heavily.

Anyway:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.251% 41.86% 02.39% 10535890248 602458206.00 { T5o }
Hand 1: 55.749% 53.36% 02.39% 13430062140 602458206.00 { random }

And villain has exactly that here, a random hand. The spot is great for him to push after so many ppl are already out and first in vigorish and folders before you are so much more important than the actual card.
I would push here in his spot 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Harrington sez:

"If I have at least 10 times as many chips as another player, I will cheerfully put them all-in with any two cards. The combined probability that they will fold to my bet or that I will win the hand if they call is always great enough to risk the chance of at most a 10 percent hit to my stack."

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"If I have at least 10 times as many chips as another player, I will cheerfully put them all-in with any two cards. The combined probability that they will fold to my bet or that I will win the hand if they call is always great enough to risk the chance of at most a 10 percent hit to my stack."

[/ QUOTE ]

ahhh - good post, that we review the literature. so obv. i was wrong.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

How late is it in the tournament?

As a chip leader, it may be in your interest to keep shortie around as shortie or someone else will surely bust before you do. Some other short to mid stacks may not be so sure. Since you're sure to move up you may have little short term interest in eliminating shortie, while others may have much more interest in in seeing him gone. With a cripple stack around it makes it easier for a big stack to be aggressive with other short to medium stacks who are waiting for shortie to bust so they can move up the pay level. A fold isn't bad here.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"If I have at least 10 times as many chips as another player, I will cheerfully put them all-in with any two cards. The combined probability that they will fold to my bet or that I will win the hand if they call is always great enough to risk the chance of at most a 10 percent hit to my stack."

[/ QUOTE ]

ahhh - good post, that we review the literature. so obv. i was wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

But then I believe he goes on to cite an example from the final table of his ME win where he called a push from the BB holding junk and not getting very good odds. When he flipped up his cards you could hear the other players and the audience gasp. Harrington said this had the added benefit of keeping people from pushing into him lightly the rest of the way.

This 10% rule seems to be one of the most controversial bits of advice in his books. Seems to me many good mtt'ers disagree with Harrington.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"If I have at least 10 times as many chips as another player, I will cheerfully put them all-in with any two cards. The combined probability that they will fold to my bet or that I will win the hand if they call is always great enough to risk the chance of at most a 10 percent hit to my stack."

[/ QUOTE ]

ahhh - good post, that we review the literature. so obv. i was wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too; I answered "call" when I took the test for exactly the same reason. But if there's one thing I've learned from going through this exercise, it's that KipBond is not to be second-guessed lightly.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

i remember this example - where the audiency whispered "harrington has gone mad".

But i think this was only a pot odd example, where he was in the big blind and got pot odds so good that he called with any 2 cards.

so from a mathematical point of view - there should not be a call in this particular example. from a psychological point this has to be a discussion if you allow a small stack - that can go in with anything - to steal your BB.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i remember this example - where the audiency whispered "harrington has gone mad".

But i think this was only a pot odd example, where he was in the big blind and got pot odds so good that he called with any 2 cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. You can see this on the ESPN final table coverage and even the other players are looking at him like he's friggen nuts. The other players would understand a pot odds call in that spot with any 2. (At least back then since most were pros or very experienced recreational players.)

[Edit for sentence structure.]

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
2. Also, here the villain puts in 10K in a ~5K pot, so 15K and you have to call 8K. So it's close to 2:1 and I use the 2:1 rule that HOH mentions also.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not right. There is 13K in the pot, 8K to call. So, a little over 3:2 pot odds.

[ QUOTE ]
As a chip leader, it may be in your interest to keep shortie around as shortie or someone else will surely bust before you do. Some other short to mid stacks may not be so sure. Since you're sure to move up you may have little short term interest in eliminating shortie, while others may have much more interest in in seeing him gone. With a cripple stack around it makes it easier for a big stack to be aggressive with other short to medium stacks who are waiting for shortie to bust so they can move up the pay level. A fold isn't bad here.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

I would have to say that given the scenario any justification for a call or a fold that doesn't consider your 2 cards has to be wrong. I think you can justify both by allowing for the CO to be moving all in with any-2 cards (then you call), or that he must have something like Q7+ (then you should fold).

You can justify a fold by saying it will be better to keep the short stack around so you can steal more pots. That's what I was thinking. But you can also say it will be better to knock out a "good tournament player". Although, you aren't guaranteed to knock him out, and will actually be giving him more ammunition -- so even then your cards have to be considered.

Hopefully the donkey test doesn't put too much weight on this question, because I think either answer can be justified. Good feedback so far... maybe Sklansky will show up to school us???

[ QUOTE ]
But if there's one thing I've learned from going through this exercise, it's that KipBond is not to be second-guessed lightly.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Ahh... thanks. But, I'm no expert, that's for sure. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. You can see this on the ESPN final table coverage and even the other players are looking at him like he's friggen nuts. The other players would understand a pot odds call in that spot with any 2. (At least back then since most were pros or very experienced recreational players.)

[/ QUOTE ]

yes - you are right.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

Review:

Assuming there are no other tournament dynamic considerations, this is a call. Here is a great chance to eliminate a "good" player who could get in your way of winning the tournament. Also, given that he is good, he should be pushing pretty wide here and I wouldn't be surprised if our T5 was ahead PF a substantial % of the time.

HOHII in the fly swatting section talks about "putting" a villain A/I with 10x the number of chips. NOT calling an all-in.

But here it doesn't matter because we are getting the right price and have an opportunity to knock out an otherwise dangerous player.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

again kip it's not a cash game. You cant look at it solely from a tourny chip ev perspective. Knocking a player out of the tournament at a final table of a multi is huge

A key part of the question is this
Late in a large No Limit Hold 'Em tournament.

If we are in the money already, which i assume we are, and the final table is where the payscale starts going up, then every player we eliminate is huge huge huge. So you cant look at it as 13:8 pot odds. You need to look at it that if we lose, it will hurt us very minimally (less than 10%) and if we win it will knock someone out of the tourny

i still say easy call

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
again kip it's not a cash game. You cant look at it solely from a tourny chip ev perspective. Knocking a player out of the tournament at a final table of a multi is huge

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. Sklansky in NLHTAP is talking about tournaments. I understand that knocking a player out is +EV (more real $$), but keeping him in might also be +EV. Depending on other dynamics of the table, it might be better to keep him in to gather more chips while other short stacks are playing conservatively hoping to move up in real $$.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

I like that I can now pretty much and check if Sherman responded to a thread to see whether or not I need to bother. I was gonna post my thoughts, then I read his post and see he said exactly what I was gonna say already.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

If there are antes, call
If there are no antes, fold

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

I was thinking that if villain is a strong player then it could be an argument to fold. If we double him then he becomes a much greater threat to Hero. By folding hero keeps him short so that he is little threat.

If hero calls and shortie doubles, then next time around Hero would have to spend around 20% of his stack to look up a shortie push. By folding this time it makes it easier for hero to call shorties inevitable pushes later on.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

Guys, "calling because you have the chance to eliminate a strong player" is simply stupid here.

If you are getting about 2.2-3:1, you sort of have to call. If you aren't, you can fold.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

I confess, I never understood the fly swat rule unless it involved implicit collusion to knock someone out very, VERY late in the tourney.

Why dump chips to a player with a hand that's not even better than random? If we can put the villian on a truly random hand, then call. It boils down to "If I have odds against his range, call, if I don't, fold."

I don't grasp why we'd throw money in without odds just hoping to bust someone. Unless, like I said, it's incredibly late in the tourney or doubling him still leaves him really short or some such oddity.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we are in the money already, which i assume we are, and the final table is where the payscale starts going up, then every player we eliminate is huge huge huge. So you cant look at it as 13:8 pot odds. You need to look at it that if we lose, it will hurt us very minimally (less than 10%) and if we win it will knock someone out of the tourny

i still say easy call

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't like he's going to automagically win if we don't knock him out. If we fold he's going to be at 13K, still very short and still very, very likely to be knocked out soon. Doubling him up is much worse for us.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there are antes, call
If there are no antes, fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted call because there has to be antes at these blinds.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, "calling because you have the chance to eliminate a strong player" is simply stupid here.

If you are getting about 2.2-3:1, you sort of have to call. If you aren't, you can fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted fold because it didn't say anything about an ante. With one I'd call, unless it was a ridiculously small ante (for example, I think Party used to have a 1/16 SB ante).

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there are antes, call
If there are no antes, fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. The guy has to be pushing almost 100% to make it a call without them. I don't think any decent player is doing that vs a big stack.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there are antes, call
If there are no antes, fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted call because there has to be antes at these blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the problem doesn't state if there are antes or not, but it does state precisely the size of the blinds, your stack, and your opponent's stack, I think it is fair to assume there are no antes. Otherwise, the author of the problem was quite misleading. It also doesn't say how many players are at the table which you would have to know if considering the size of the antes.

Re: Donkey Test - Call 5BB All-In?
 

I (re)took the donkey test (apparently they changed a lot of their questions since the last time I took the test), and was trying to search for a thread that may have the updated answers. I believe this question was a repeat from the first version, and the answer was "call", even though I am still skeptical about this answer. I guess the author's assumption was that this guy is pushing any two (or at the least the top 80% of his hands), and 1.5-1 odds is enough to justify a call with T high against this range. If anyone has links to answers, I would mucho appreciate.

Thank you,
slik