($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (3 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB (t3516)
Hero (t4254)
SB (t5730)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

What should hero's line be here? DDBeast is BB if it matters.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

I'd muck if the SB is good. The person in the BB doesn't have that much effect on my play.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

Since BB is DDBeast, fold and let him collect the moniez.

* But seriously, It's close and probably a fold since stack sizes are relatively close. Pushing can't be too bad.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

I can't think of folding Ax 3 handed being EV+ when stack sizes are pretty much similar.

I push.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

Luis,

Pushing is out of the question.

Ryan

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since BB is DDBeast, fold and let him collect the moniez.

* But seriously, It's close and probably a fold since stack sizes are relatively close. Pushing can't be too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd definitely fold before I pushed. What about limping or raising to say 900 hands like this as long as you mix in a limp/raise to 900 w/ big hands sometimes too?

Ryan

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Luis,

Pushing is out of the question.

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I am confused.
What would you plan to do if you don't fold? min raise? limp?
What if SB pushes you over?

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

Yes, limp or make a small raise.

Ryan

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

1000/fold to a reraise

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

PokerStars Game #11012803282: Tournament #55838465, $525+$30 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/07/18 - 22:57:02 (ET)
Table '55838465 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: SQUi5HiiFiSH (3822 in chips)
Seat 4: Guldgraveren (3320 in chips)
Seat 5: brsavage (6358 in chips)
SQUi5HiiFiSH: posts the ante 25
Guldgraveren: posts the ante 25
brsavage: posts the ante 25
SQUi5HiiFiSH: posts small blind 200
Guldgraveren: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SQUi5HiiFiSH [3s As]
brsavage: folds
SQUi5HiiFiSH: raises 600 to 1000
Guldgraveren: raises 2295 to 3295 and is all-in
SQUi5HiiFiSH: folds
Guldgraveren collected 2075 from pot
Guldgraveren: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2075 | Rake 0
Seat 1: SQUi5HiiFiSH (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Guldgraveren (big blind) collected (2075)
Seat 5: brsavage (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

This is really read dependent/game flow dependent

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

In your situation I'm still in push/fold . Can anyone care to explain briefly why possibly raise > push here ?

Thanks a lot.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

i would say because if you get reraised then you know you are beaten and you still have enough chips to get away from a raise, so your cards could might aswell be blank imo

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars Game #11012803282: Tournament #55838465, $525+$30 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/07/18 - 22:57:02 (ET)
Table '55838465 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: SQUi5HiiFiSH (3822 in chips)
Seat 4: Guldgraveren (3320 in chips)
Seat 5: brsavage (6358 in chips)
SQUi5HiiFiSH: posts the ante 25
Guldgraveren: posts the ante 25
brsavage: posts the ante 25
SQUi5HiiFiSH: posts small blind 200
Guldgraveren: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SQUi5HiiFiSH [3s As]
brsavage: folds
SQUi5HiiFiSH: raises 600 to 1000
Guldgraveren: raises 2295 to 3295 and is all-in
SQUi5HiiFiSH: folds
Guldgraveren collected 2075 from pot
Guldgraveren: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2075 | Rake 0
Seat 1: SQUi5HiiFiSH (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Guldgraveren (big blind) collected (2075)
Seat 5: brsavage (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to question a guy playing a lot higher than me, but this looks TERRIBLE. Pushing is unexploitable. At a minimum a push is worth +$60 (haha, my level). It is very hard for me to believe that the rasie/fold is more profitable. Sure, sometimes he will have a hand that dominates you but a lot of stuff like QJs and KQo is in his range making this really bad. If he has a read that you can raise/fold here he can push really wide.

Sorry to hijack.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

withoug running anything my default is to fold A2 in the original hand.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

RGH hand: I guess folding seems the best.

The other hand is way different since hero is in the SB and looks pretty bad.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

hero in the original hand has just too many chips to push. and is folding an Ace 3 handed really the best choice? maybe. it's just not something i would do. in the 2600-3000ish range it's an autopush i suppose.

hijacked hand, again just a little too deep to push. but the fold was read dependent, i'd been making a living taking his blinds. this is the 1st time he came over the top.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
hero in the original hand has just too many chips to push. and is folding an Ace 3 handed really the best choice? maybe. it's just not something i would do. in the 2600-3000ish range it's an autopush i suppose.

hijacked hand, again just a little too deep to push. but the fold was read dependent, i'd been making a living taking his blinds. this is the 1st time he came over the top.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eff. stacks are 8BB. With antes, pushing is much better than raise/folding.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

In Ryan's hand, I probably push pf. It seems like min raising or limping is way more exploitable than just open shoving.

In the hand John posted, shoving is far and away the best play, and the way hero played it is beyond bad.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars Game #11012803282: Tournament #55838465, $525+$30 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/07/18 - 22:57:02 (ET)
Table '55838465 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: SQUi5HiiFiSH (3822 in chips)
Seat 4: Guldgraveren (3320 in chips)
Seat 5: brsavage (6358 in chips)
SQUi5HiiFiSH: posts the ante 25
Guldgraveren: posts the ante 25
brsavage: posts the ante 25
SQUi5HiiFiSH: posts small blind 200
Guldgraveren: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SQUi5HiiFiSH [3s As]
brsavage: folds
SQUi5HiiFiSH: raises 600 to 1000
Guldgraveren: raises 2295 to 3295 and is all-in
SQUi5HiiFiSH: folds
Guldgraveren collected 2075 from pot
Guldgraveren: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2075 | Rake 0
Seat 1: SQUi5HiiFiSH (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Guldgraveren (big blind) collected (2075)
Seat 5: brsavage (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[/ QUOTE ]

Prepare for variance. You will get crushed at the higher buyins.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

Limping here is out of the question as well, isn't it? $675 in dead money, I think a smallish $1k-$1200 raise or fold are your only options.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
In Ryan's hand, I probably push pf. It seems like min raising or limping is way more exploitable than just open shoving.

In the hand John posted, shoving is far and away the best play, and the way hero played it is beyond bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you going to exploit it if I mix in limping/small raising w/ premium pairs as well?

In that other hand the guy posted, whew that's bad. Easy push.

Ryan

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Ryan's hand, I probably push pf. It seems like min raising or limping is way more exploitable than just open shoving.

In the hand John posted, shoving is far and away the best play, and the way hero played it is beyond bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

How are you going to exploit it if I mix in limping/small raising w/ premium pairs as well?

In that other hand the guy posted, whew that's bad. Easy push.

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

Ryan,

I'm not sure what type of range you're thinking of doing this with, but it seems like there would be way more marginal hands that you're doing it with than there are big hands with which you're trapping. Therefore villain could repush somewhat wide since it's like 3 to 1 against (just making that number up) you having a big hand versus having a borderline hand like A2. Do you disagree?

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

LOL @ limping.

oh, and LOL@ min betting.

Push or fold... you have too small a stack to get cute. Oh, and what Chipchucker5 said!

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

Just run the numbers now.
It is pretty much a fold, since you make money only if they call with top 7%.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

Ryan

If you are planning on 1,000/fold, then you should be doing this with 72o at times to no?

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just run the numbers now.
It is pretty much a fold, since you make money only if they call with top 7%.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was waiting for it get to be posted but yea pushing is usually very bad here but there are a lot of 2p2ers/regs that do it and it's very bad. Ax ITM does not equal a push.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

umm dont limp pls, if they call we re not a big favourite to win the hand and you will prly get pushed off too often preflop. limping monsters as well probably isnt a good idea too, as you want to use your first mover advantage by pushing here and therefore need strong hands in that range too.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

has anyone got the equilibrium ranges for this spot? would be very interested [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

Wow wtf, this i mind blowing.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow wtf, this i mind blowing.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just run the numbers now.
It is pretty much a fold, since you make money only if they call with top 7%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please recalculate sir. This is way off. If they call 7% each, you make 0.7% to 0.8% (doesn't account for overcall, but that's a tiny amount).

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ryan

If you are planning on 1,000/fold, then you should be doing this with 72o at times to no?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this is retarded because a lot of times PEOPLE CALL.

Ryan

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL @ limping.

oh, and LOL@ min betting.

Push or fold... you have too small a stack to get cute. Oh, and what Chipchucker5 said!

[/ QUOTE ]

lol @ you.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ryan

If you are planning on 1,000/fold, then you should be doing this with 72o at times to no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, thx

No, this is retarded because a lot of times PEOPLE CALL.

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is really read dependent/game flow dependent

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Recent hand image decides this for me. Tighter image standard raise/fold to push - c-bet flop. Looser image fold.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Luis,

Pushing is out of the question.

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, I must have a big leak 3-handed because I was pretty sure this is a push and 100% sure that push is better than fold. SNGPT seems to agree ... What is your reasoning again?

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

I thought it was an autopush as well. I think it is at the lower stakes I play at - 27's & 60's. SNGPT says it is a $EV push unless the blinds call with 16% or more of their hands (33+,A7o+,A3s+,KQo,KTs+). I assume at these higher stakes, the players are more aggressive with their calls in these situations, so that's why shoving isn't correct? Please enlighten me folks.

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
has anyone got the equilibrium ranges for this spot? would be very interested [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]
With SNGPT I got about 34%, 14% and 17% (b,sb,bb).

With SNGWiz I got about 23%, 9% and 10%. Those are with bvb playing NE (80%, 33%) when hero folds and BB overcalling KK+.

Right?

Re: ($225) a very annoying common spot ITM.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just run the numbers now.
It is pretty much a fold, since you make money only if they call with top 7%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please recalculate sir. This is way off. If they call 7% each, you make 0.7% to 0.8% (doesn't account for overcall, but that's a tiny amount).

[/ QUOTE ]

What did I say?
To me anything looser than 7% makes either close to 0% to negative.