Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

i'd say i agree with close to 100% percent of her views expressed in this video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MZ7ZSzvVBGo

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

Nice link.

I don't think it's a matter of "admitting." I think Sklansky is pretty brutally honest about what he thinks. I don't see how he disagrees with anything she said about altruism; for whatever reasons though, I'm pretty sure DS doesn't philosophically care about the role of government. He probably takes it for what it is, and cares more about practical solutions to problems.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

Sklansky's views seem very Objectivist to me if I had to guess, but I think he would honestly answer a question like this if presented to him. Also, if I had to guess, the reason why so many don't understand his moral compass is because they either aren't objectivists or aren't familiar with objectivist thought/philosophy.




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

First nit point, I would say Sklansky thinks similarly to Rand and not the other way around [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Second, as a preemptive strike on the haters (preemptive strikes being something that followers of Rand fully support to my knowledge) the broad strokes of Rand's philosophy is pretty inoffensive are almost universally followed by the average joe. She gets a really bad rap because his books aren't that well written (though the underlying claims are compelling).

People don't actually act altruistic, rather their Utility function factors in the utility of other people and thus often increase other people's utility in an effort to maximize their own.

this is why i take out the trash when my roommate is sick, we both want the trash out, we both rather have someone else do it in a vacuum, but the guy is sick and i care about his welfare and i would like to take some burden off his shoulders because frankly that would make me happy.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i care about his welfare

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the piece of the pie that we all know is true but the utility people can't swallow.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i care about his welfare

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the piece of the pie that we all know is true but the utility people can't swallow.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would disagree. i have read a couple of articles by Economists that basically were entirely about interdependent utility functions. Economists like to 'raid' other social sciences and i have certainly heard some talk about altruism in this sense of a person really just acting in a self interested manner that incidentally (wrong word choice obviously but i can't think of anything better) helps other people.

"there is always a quid pro quo"

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i care about his welfare

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the piece of the pie that we all know is true but the utility people can't swallow.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure some struggle to realise it, but once you recognise that one of the things that matters to us is the wellbeing of others then its sorted.

but we don't let the fact its sorted stop us disagreeing about it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

The only problem left is whether utility is ordered and so whether it makes sense to talk about maximising it.

chez

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Second, as a preemptive strike on the haters (preemptive strikes being something that followers of Rand fully support to my knowledge)

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, re-read Rand please. Your knowledge is lacking.


[ QUOTE ]
the broad strokes of Rand's philosophy is pretty inoffensive are almost universally followed by the average joe. She gets a really bad rap because his books aren't that well written (though the underlying claims are compelling).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you confusing Ayn Rand with someone else? Ayn Rand is a female.


[ QUOTE ]
this is why i take out the trash when my roommate is sick, we both want the trash out, we both rather have someone else do it in a vacuum, but the guy is sick and i care about his welfare and i would like to take some burden off his shoulders because frankly that would make me happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Watch the video.




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]

People don't actually act altruistic, rather their Utility function factors in the utility of other people and thus often increase other people's utility in an effort to maximize their own.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with the rest, at least the parts that I have an opinion on, just want to nitpick this. This is a very popular notion now a days. However I think this model is possibly flawed. Maximizing might only be one rational strategy of the larger set of strategies encompassed by avoiding actions that produce a negative utility. Rational people don't harm themselves. This definition of rational might produce a better model of human behavior. I'm not sold yet.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

Wow, my eyes are buggy and head is spinning reading this thread. I think very few of you have actually read Rand before talking about the subject...




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second, as a preemptive strike on the haters (preemptive strikes being something that followers of Rand fully support to my knowledge)

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, re-read Rand please. Your knowledge is lacking.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
ZOMG i am getting called out (and i intended to post from a sympathetic position in the first place!), i am going to have to go do some digging. I remember specifically reading that Rand believes that defending corporate interests can be just cause for war. kind of like how she says america shouldn't have allowed these countries to nationalize their oil production. i guess objectivists wouldn't consider that a truly preemptive strike, since its a violent retaliation after harm (but not really violent harm) has been imposed on a country.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
the broad strokes of Rand's philosophy is pretty inoffensive are almost universally followed by the average joe. She gets a really bad rap because his books aren't that well written (though the underlying claims are compelling).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you confusing Ayn Rand with someone else? Ayn Rand is a female.



[/ QUOTE ]
So i am a border-line dyslexic retard, i make dumb mistakes with grammar all the time, particularly when i am multitasking when posting. so if you are a grammar nit, just call me an idiot and move on i guess.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
this is why i take out the trash when my roommate is sick, we both want the trash out, we both rather have someone else do it in a vacuum, but the guy is sick and i care about his welfare and i would like to take some burden off his shoulders because frankly that would make me happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Watch the video.




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]done.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

People don't actually act altruistic, rather their Utility function factors in the utility of other people and thus often increase other people's utility in an effort to maximize their own.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with the rest, at least the parts that I have an opinion on, just want to nitpick this. This is a very popular notion now a days. However I think this model is possibly flawed. Maximizing might only be one rational strategy of the larger set of strategies encompassed by avoiding actions that produce a negative utility. Rational people don't harm themselves. This definition of rational might produce a better model of human behavior. I'm not sold yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea that may very well be a better model for human behavior. i don't think it is the ideal strategy though, so there is reason to have both models around. IE a corporation should probably attempt to have its behavior conform to a utility maximizing model rather than a "first, do no harm" model.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whoa, re-read Rand please. Your knowledge is lacking.

[/ QUOTE ]

ZOMG i am getting called out (and i intended to post from a sympathetic position in the first place!), i am going to have to go do some digging. I remember specifically reading that Rand believes that defending corporate interests can be just cause for war. kind of like how she says america shouldn't have allowed these countries to nationalize their oil production. i guess objectivists wouldn't consider that a truly preemptive strike, since its a violent retaliation after harm (but not really violent harm) has been imposed on a country.

[/ QUOTE ]

You call that getting called out?

A citation for your belief up there would be in order. Rand doesn't strike me as an interventionist as you're portraying her here.

Also, I wouldn't call foreign policy a part of the greater Objectivist philosophy. Generally, foreign policy/philosophy requires a different mindset than personal or domestic policy/philosophy.




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

caps ZOMG usually indicates sarcasm, at least for me when i am posting in a philosophy forum. yes, my initial statement probably does mischaracterizes her somewhat.

[ QUOTE ]
Thus the proper role of government is limited to placing retaliatory force under objective control, so that legitimized force is used only in retaliation against those who initiate its use, such as criminals and foreign aggressors.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_politics best i can do for now. anyway, given the quote and what i know about objectivism (which probably isn't as much as you), Rand would be in favor of going to war to defend national interests if perhaps China was committing massive copyright infringement/stealing patents from American companies. calling that a preemptive strike is inaccurate though, at least in the eyes of Rand and her followers, since China has already acted and as the quote suggests the government is acting in a retaliatory manner.

i guess my point is that Rand sees all aggression as similar, so to fight the breaking of a trade treaty you could go to war. whereas many other people would say going to war over such things is immoral and you should deal with the breaking of a treaty with an embargo or tariffs or something.

however, you can see how a non-objectivist would consider American the aggressor in such scenarios, right or wrong.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ayn Rand is a female.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is as open to debate as any of her philosophical claims.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
caps ZOMG usually indicates sarcasm, at least for me when i am posting in a philosophy forum. yes, my initial statement probably does mischaracterizes her somewhat.

[ QUOTE ]
Thus the proper role of government is limited to placing retaliatory force under objective control, so that legitimized force is used only in retaliation against those who initiate its use, such as criminals and foreign aggressors.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivist_politics best i can do for now. anyway, given the quote and what i know about objectivism (which probably isn't as much as you), Rand would be in favor of going to war to defend national interests if perhaps China was committing massive copyright infringement/stealing patents from American companies. calling that a preemptive strike is inaccurate though, at least in the eyes of Rand and her followers, since China has already acted and as the quote suggests the government is acting in a retaliatory manner.

i guess my point is that Rand sees all aggression as similar, so to fight the breaking of a trade treaty you could go to war. whereas many other people would say going to war over such things is immoral and you should deal with the breaking of a treaty with an embargo or tariffs or something.

however, you can see how a non-objectivist would consider American the aggressor in such scenarios, right or wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

"legitimized force is used only in retaliation against those who initiate its use"

I think that phrase pretty much covers it. Force is used only in retaliation against those who initiate its (referring to force) use. Someone must initiate violence in order for a violent response to be appropriate. It in no way advocates a violent reaction to a non-violent transgression. It advocates a return of force in recognition of it.

I'm not saying that Rand wouldn't get violent about copyright infringement, but I would give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she would use reason first and violence last. Her philosophy encompasses non-violence and considers violence a very last resort that will hopefully never be reached.




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

follow

yea i agree pretty much.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ayn Rand is a female.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is as open to debate as any of her philosophical claims.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure how long you have been around here on SMP, Alaw; but dang, welcome to the forum. What a grand entrance. NH.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

Phil Donahue's rant at 7:29 of part 3 is awesome; and so is Colbert's "The right to quote" video.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

Ayn Rand has more in common with internet trolls than she has in common with people she would like to compare herself to, like Nietzsche. Nietzsche would laugh at her. So would any legitimate AC theorists.

Yeah, we should invade the middle east to secure oil concessions. Sounds like small government to me!

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, we should invade the middle east to secure oil concessions. Sounds like small government to me!

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed her point. Donahue asked how we would go about getting oil if it weren't for the state, and she responded by reminding him that it was the state itself (through "altruism") that created the problem by making a bad contract.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ayn Rand is a female.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is as open to debate as any of her philosophical claims.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure how long you have been around here on SMP, Alaw; but dang, welcome to the forum. What a grand entrance. NH.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, thanks.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

I think she has a weird definition for the term 'altruism'. If it is as she says, very few people ever act altruistically.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]

You missed her point. Donahue asked how we would go about getting oil if it weren't for the state, and she responded by reminding him that it was the state itself (through "altruism") that created the problem by making a bad contract.



[/ QUOTE ]

nonono dude. it's YOU that missed HER point. Her position is that any capitalist nation has the right to invade any noncapitalist nation. Greater freedom through imperialism. Weeeee!

She's not a philosopher. She's a trashy hack apologist for the worst excesses of united states imperialism.
This is the stuff of press secretaries, not philosophers. Also, "objectivism" is just pure branding. There's nothing unique or interesting in any of her "philosophy"

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

I don't even know how this conversation could be more ridiculous, though I am open to suggestions and I'm sure I'll see examples soon enough.

What does any of it have to do with the original topic?




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't even know how this conversation could be more ridiculous, though I am open to suggestions and I'm sure I'll see examples soon enough.

What does any of it have to do with the original topic?




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky is not a hack apologist for the state, and is therefore a significantly more impressive thinker than Rand.

Follow [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

It's funny how people who could never possibly amount to anything near who Ayn Rand was insult her on internet forums all day long. Her novels, written years ago, will continue to out sell anything you could ever write.

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't even know how this conversation could be more ridiculous, though I am open to suggestions and I'm sure I'll see examples soon enough.

What does any of it have to do with the original topic?




Follow [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky is not a hack apologist for the state, and is therefore a significantly more impressive thinker than Rand.



[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read any of his posts?

Re: Ayn Rand thinks Similarly to Sklansky?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's funny how people who could never possibly amount to anything near who Ayn Rand was insult her on internet forums all day long. Her novels, written years ago, will continue to out sell anything you could ever write.

[/ QUOTE ]

Popularity does not equal profundity