If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

Let's say that Bush heeded the advice of some of the people in this forum and pulled every single US troop out of Iraq and other foreign territories. If this happened, do you think Osama would renounce his jihad on America and stop planning terrorist attacks on US soil?

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

hmm, depends is he alive or dead?

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately... *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by iron81

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

^why?

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
hmm, depends is he alive or dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as we can tell, he is a alive. But if you want to nitpick, simply replace Osama with Al Qaeda in the question.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

I don't understand the question. The american army is an occupying force. They are the bad guys. What does OBL or whomever have to do with this?

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

Osama bin Laden is just a figurehead. It is the movement of Islamic Fundamentalists that is the problem. And the vast majority of those guys are in Saudi Arabia and the border areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

I think your poll is pretty dumb. It is shortsighted thinking that got the US into the war.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

I don't think OBL is going to change his mind/stated goals at this point. The objective of pulling out of Iraq now would be to:

- Recognize that the stated objectives of the war are not the same as tha actual objectives of the war, and that the actual objectives are being met and are not in the best interest of the majority of American;
- Reduce the probability that current activities are creating OBL version 2020.

Using the on-going problems created by past mistakes to justify/perpetuate current mistakes is not a good idea.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

I think the US would have to stop arming the Israelis and supporting their occupation of Palestine for that to happen.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the question. The american army is an occupying force. They are the bad guys. What does OBL or whomever have to do with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, Saddam Hussein was the occupying force in Iraq for decades until we liberated the Iraqi people from his reign of terror. Saddam is the one who ordered gas attacks on innocent civilians. It's not our fault that Iran, Al Qaeda, and the former Sunni ruling elite are doing everything in their power to cause chaos and make America look bad.

Secondly, you tell me what OBL has to do with this. I'm not sure if you are among them, but there is a large group of people in this forum who make excuses for the terrorist attacks of 9/11 by saying that US foreign policy is to blame for the attacks.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Osama bin Laden is just a figurehead. It is the movement of Islamic Fundamentalists that is the problem. And the vast majority of those guys are in Saudi Arabia and the border areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that we should ramp up pressure on Pakistan as well, and pursue military options if necessary. But just because there are terrorists in other regions does not mean we should give the terrorists in Iraq a free pass.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the question. The american army is an occupying force. They are the bad guys. What does OBL or whomever have to do with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, Saddam Hussein was the occupying force in Iraq for decades until we liberated the Iraqi people from his reign of terror. Saddam is the one who ordered gas attacks on innocent civilians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a little history for you:

The West has drawn the country lines of Iraq. They instituted Saddam, they supplied him weapons and supported him all through his killings. Then they started sanctions which killed hundreds of thousands.

'Liberating the Iraqi people'; R U serious?


[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, you tell me what OBL has to do with this. I'm not sure if you are among them, but there is a large group of people in this forum who make excuses for the terrorist attacks of 9/11 by saying that US foreign policy is to blame for the attacks.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hahaha. I'm saying it's an inside job. Just like 1993 WTC attacks. Listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vD9kRULsc (first 6 minutes or so).

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the question. The american army is an occupying force. They are the bad guys. What does OBL or whomever have to do with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Saddam was really a threat to the world and the most evil dictator in the world would all occupational forces in Iraq still be "the bad guys" -even if there genuine goal was in the interest of democratic Iraqi opinion and their well-being? Providing you are an ACist I assume you think ALL occupation forces are the "bad guys" by nature but putting your pipe-dreams aside ( I am putting my anarchistic philosophy aside)~ can you acknwoledge that in the current climate/framework occupation forces can be "good"?

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]



Hahaha. I'm saying it's an inside job. Just like 1993 WTC attacks. Listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vD9kRULsc (first 6 minutes or so).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so you are conspiracy theorist? Come on MAN! Be sensible!

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the US would have to stop arming the Israelis and supporting their occupation of Palestine for that to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously OP what is your point? they declared jihad or whatever before we invaded iraq, why would they cancel it when we leave? And do you think people advocating leaving iraq are doing it to appease the terrorists or something? Wait you probably do.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

" Saddam is the one who ordered gas attacks on innocent civilians. It's not our fault that Iran, Al Qaeda, and the former Sunni ruling elite are doing everything in their power to cause chaos and make America look bad. "

Well, when you prop up Sadaam and send him weapons, money and yes even biological agents, when you fund the people who turned into Al-Qaeda and when you over throw the democratically elected government in Iran, subverting the first Muslim democracy in the middle east, I would say you bear some of the responsibility.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the question. The american army is an occupying force. They are the bad guys. What does OBL or whomever have to do with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Saddam was really a threat to the world and the most evil dictator in the world would all occupational forces in Iraq still be "the bad guys" -even if there genuine goal was in the interest of democratic Iraqi opinion and their well-being? Providing you are an ACist I assume you think ALL occupation forces are the "bad guys" by nature but putting your pipe-dreams aside ( I am putting my anarchistic philosophy aside)~ can you acknwoledge that in the current climate/framework occupation forces can be "good"?

[/ QUOTE ]


This is mostly my position:

CBC Hot Type, Evan Solomon interviews Noam Chomsky on his book 9-11
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...5487&hl=nl
(40 minutes, very eye-opening)

"NC: I respond to that by saying that there are many evil forces in the world. If we want to stop atrocities, I think it's a great idea to reduce the level of atrocities and violence around the world. The easiest way to do it, simple, is to stop participating in it. If we stop participating in it, we will already reduce the levels of atrocities and violence enormously."

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



Hahaha. I'm saying it's an inside job. Just like 1993 WTC attacks. Listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vD9kRULsc (first 6 minutes or so).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, so you are conspiracy theorist? Come on MAN! Be sensible!

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, let's.

http://www.hostgrok.com/media/wtc7_collapse_sm.gif

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the question. The american army is an occupying force. They are the bad guys. What does OBL or whomever have to do with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Saddam was really a threat to the world and the most evil dictator in the world would all occupational forces in Iraq still be "the bad guys" -even if there genuine goal was in the interest of democratic Iraqi opinion and their well-being? Providing you are an ACist I assume you think ALL occupation forces are the "bad guys" by nature but putting your pipe-dreams aside ( I am putting my anarchistic philosophy aside)~ can you acknwoledge that in the current climate/framework occupation forces can be "good"?

[/ QUOTE ]


This is mostly my position:

CBC Hot Type, Evan Solomon interviews Noam Chomsky on his book 9-11
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...5487&hl=nl
(40 minutes, very eye-opening)

"NC: I respond to that by saying that there are many evil forces in the world. If we want to stop atrocities, I think it's a great idea to reduce the level of atrocities and violence around the world. The easiest way to do it, simple, is to stop participating in it. If we stop participating in it, we will already reduce the levels of atrocities and violence enormously."

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link- I will definetly watch this. Last night I watched a Chomsky Q&A video feed at Sussex University which is also very interesting; and he mentions 9/11 and the invalidity of 9/11 being an "inside job"

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

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Thanks for the link- I will definetly watch this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great.


[ QUOTE ]
Last night I watched a Chomsky Q&A video feed at Sussex University which is also very interesting; and he mentions 9/11 and the invalidity of 9/11 being an "inside job"

[/ QUOTE ]

The above has 9/11 in the title, but it's not really about that, it's more about American foreign policy.


If you're interested in the 9/11 events itself, I suggest part II of Zeitgeist the Movie:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...90539111319889

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

What you fail to understand is what sort of damage you do to your creditability when you start in with your "zomg 9/11 was a conspriacy!!1" stuff.

In the world's eyes, this completely invalidates any and all other opinions you may hold.

If you fail to grasp something so simple and obvious and proven as the facts of 9/11, how can your opinion on anything else be trusted?

It would be like if you were listening to a guy give opinions on stuff at a lecture and you were agreeing with him, then all the sudden he began telling you about his home planet Nebulon 5 in the Corpulus sector.

You'd be like "WTF, this guy is a loon." and odds are you wouldn't take anything he has to say from that point on seriously.

There are 3 types of conspriacy theory people

1. People who desperately want to feel special and smart.

2. People who suffer from some sort of actual mental illness (paranoid schizophrenics, etc.)

3. People who would directly benefit if the conspiracy were actually true (politically, economically, etc.)

You're probably a combo of 1 & 3.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

Your wrong in the way you are trying to catergorise conspiracy theorist into 3 categories (reductionist, much?)- But your right in that claiming 9/11 was a inside job is both absurd, factually incomprehensible and discredits more worthy and valid criticisms of the government the person may have.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
" Saddam is the one who ordered gas attacks on innocent civilians. It's not our fault that Iran, Al Qaeda, and the former Sunni ruling elite are doing everything in their power to cause chaos and make America look bad. "

Well, when you prop up Sadaam and send him weapons, money and yes even biological agents, when you fund the people who turned into Al-Qaeda and when you over throw the democratically elected government in Iran, subverting the first Muslim democracy in the middle east, I would say you bear some of the responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if I grant you, in arguendo, that America made mistakes in the past, that has little relevance on whether or not the current war in Iraq is just. For example, let's say that a father gives his child a gun and tells him to shoot his mother. The father then realizes that his previous action was wrong and tries to get the gun back from the child to prevent him from killing her. Is the father not justified in taking the gun away from the child?

Save the arguments about the past for the historians. If you want to talk about whether America's current actions are right or wrong, analyze America's actions based on current conditions and justifications.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even if I grant you, in arguendo, that America made mistakes in the past, that has little relevance on whether or not the current war in Iraq is just. For example, let's say that a father gives his child a gun and tells him to shoot his mother. The father then realizes that his previous action was wrong and tries to get the gun back from the child to prevent him from killing her. Is the father not justified in taking the gun away from the child?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a more apt analogy would be the father giving a gun to his daughter and saying "kill the son, he did something wrong", and then giving a gun to his nephew and saying "kill the daughter, she did something wrong", and on and on and on.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you fail to grasp something so simple and obvious and proven as the facts of 9/11

[/ QUOTE ]


Hahaha.


[ QUOTE ]
The Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, speculated that office fires caused the collapse of the building. It, however, acknowledged in its report in May 2002: <font color="red">"The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. [...] the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence."</font>
http://11syyskuu.blogspot.com/2006/0...-of-wtc-7.html


[/ QUOTE ]

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger...30417/wtc7.gif

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

who are you and what have you done w/ Bickford?

I am impressed w/ your new civil non troll tone and retract my grease fire comment

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
who are you and what have you done w/ Bickford?

I am impressed w/ your new civil non troll tone and retract my grease fire comment

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps the free exchange of ideas has softened his resolve. It's Nielsio's "Internet For a Free Humanity" in action!

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if I grant you, in arguendo, that America made mistakes in the past, that has little relevance on whether or not the current war in Iraq is just. For example, let's say that a father gives his child a gun and tells him to shoot his mother. The father then realizes that his previous action was wrong and tries to get the gun back from the child to prevent him from killing her. Is the father not justified in taking the gun away from the child?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a more apt analogy would be the father giving a gun to his daughter and saying "kill the son, he did something wrong", and then giving a gun to his nephew and saying "kill the daughter, she did something wrong", and on and on and on.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the daughter were Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, then yes that would be a very apt analogy.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the daughter were Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, then yes that would be a very apt analogy.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you think the optimal solution for the father is to continue handing out guns, rather than choosing to stop handing out guns?

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

"Is the father not justified in taking the gun away from the child?"

A more accurate analogy would be, could the father blow the brains out of the little child in 'defense' of the mother? The answer is no.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

"

Save the arguments about the past for the historians. If you want to talk about whether America's current actions are right or wrong, analyze America's actions based on current conditions and justifications.
"

The media and our politicians would like you to believe that this war is unlike every other; that this war is unrelated to the last war, or the war before that or any of the other wars. In truth, these wars are not unrelated but rather the natural succession to the other; simply, brutal, naked imperialism.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
"

Save the arguments about the past for the historians. If you want to talk about whether America's current actions are right or wrong, analyze America's actions based on current conditions and justifications.
"

The media and our politicians would like you to believe that this war is unlike every other; that this war is unrelated to the last war, or the war before that or any of the other wars. In truth, these wars are not unrelated but rather the natural succession to the other; simply, brutal, naked imperialism.

[/ QUOTE ]

WW2?

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
" Saddam is the one who ordered gas attacks on innocent civilians. It's not our fault that Iran, Al Qaeda, and the former Sunni ruling elite are doing everything in their power to cause chaos and make America look bad. "

Well, when you prop up Sadaam and send him weapons, money and yes even biological agents, when you fund the people who turned into Al-Qaeda and when you over throw the democratically elected government in Iran, subverting the first Muslim democracy in the middle east, I would say you bear some of the responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if I grant you, in arguendo, that America made mistakes in the past, that has little relevance on whether or not the current war in Iraq is just. For example, let's say that a father gives his child a gun and tells him to shoot his mother. The father then realizes that his previous action was wrong and tries to get the gun back from the child to prevent him from killing her. Is the father not justified in taking the gun away from the child?

Save the arguments about the past for the historians. If you want to talk about whether America's current actions are right or wrong, analyze America's actions based on current conditions and justifications.

[/ QUOTE ]


The father takes away the gun by killing the child. He then kills the mother who attacks him after becoming outraged that the father killed the child. The relatives in the kitchen attack the father for killing the mother, he then kills the relatives for attacking him unprovoked. And it goes on and on and on till one side of the family kills the other or everyone is dead.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
" Saddam is the one who ordered gas attacks on innocent civilians. It's not our fault that Iran, Al Qaeda, and the former Sunni ruling elite are doing everything in their power to cause chaos and make America look bad. "

Well, when you prop up Sadaam and send him weapons, money and yes even biological agents, when you fund the people who turned into Al-Qaeda and when you over throw the democratically elected government in Iran, subverting the first Muslim democracy in the middle east, I would say you bear some of the responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if I grant you, in arguendo, that America made mistakes in the past, that has little relevance on whether or not the current war in Iraq is just. For example, let's say that a father gives his child a gun and tells him to shoot his mother. The father then realizes that his previous action was wrong and tries to get the gun back from the child to prevent him from killing her. Is the father not justified in taking the gun away from the child?

Save the arguments about the past for the historians. If you want to talk about whether America's current actions are right or wrong, analyze America's actions based on current conditions and justifications.

[/ QUOTE ]


The father takes away the gun by killing the child. He then kills the mother who attacks him after becoming outraged that the father killed the child. The relatives in the kitchen attack the father for killing the mother, he then kills the relatives for attacking him unprovoked. And it goes on and on and on till one side of the family kills the other or everyone is dead.

[/ QUOTE ]


That's basically the idea, yeah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwwMF6biCJU

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

WWII was caused by naked imperialism; it was just the imperialism of the Nazis. There is nothing inherently 'evil' about American Foreign Policy in that it is the natural foreign policy of any uncontested super power. It just happens to be a very bad idea for all involved, aside from a few key special interests.

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

not a good question IMO. you're not leaving much choice there.
1. as you probably know osama isn't a prime target for a long time. ask yourself why is that? two most probable answers: he's either dead or he's on safe somewhere. i really doubt state enemy No.1 wouldn't be a prime target otherwise.

2. what has OBL to do with situation in iraq? if OBL or AQ would be a real prime target, there definitely wouldn't be an attack on iraq, since iraq under saddam was AQ/fanatics totally free like no other western country. in fact iraq could be US strongest supporter in the whole region regarding religious extremism if that would be a goal.

3. what's the point of your question actually? are you denying that extremism is getting worse every single quarter? either army forces there are not capable of solving the situation or not maybe that is not even a goal. since extremism there is rising every single quarter for years, how could you advocate that occupying forces are doing a good job there since everything talks otherwise? just remember, there was no AQ in iraq before the war and now compare how strong they were 3 years ago and now.

4. of course OBL/AQ wouldn't renounce his jihad. they are insane fanatics. that's why their network/bases should be destroyed as much as possible. was that ever a true goal? how much afford were put in destroying them in their prime territory, pakistan? not much. are they really trying to destroy them in northern afghanistan now? rather they are trying to teach us main AQ centers are in iran, which is another complete lie. they want us to believe shia iran is the reason for extremism in iraq, although most attacks are made by sunnis and while much higher percentage of sunnis (96% if not wrong by last polls) demand leaving iraq for US forces. paradoxically, US is even arming sunnis.

5. probably much better question would be: <u> should US army leave iraq if iraqi government ask them to leave? </u>
or maybe: <u> should US army leave iraq if there would be a most democratic (see the irony here?) choice - a referendum by iraqis? </u> i would definitely say yes in that case. would situation in iraq improve then? probably not in a short time, but it probably be better in 5 years.

6. another good question might be also: <u> do you believe US is safer after attacking iraq or would US be safer if there wouldn't be that adventure? </u>
or maybe: <u> do you believe US is stronger after attacking iraq or would it be stronger without that? </u>
and with those questions also: <u> would you blame more AQ for that or miscalculation of one particular group's interests. </u>

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing inherently 'evil' about American Foreign Policy in that it is the natural foreign policy of any uncontested super power.

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that it is natural and predictable for a state to act like a state means it isn't evil?

Re: If we pulled out of Iraq immediately...
 

"The fact that it is natural and predictable for a state to act like a state means it isn't evil?"

Yes, basically. What is morality but accepted social norms?