no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

is there more money to be made in no limit (both live and online)? we used to be richer than all the nl donks but suddenly (ie over the last year and a half) these guys are having 7 figure months. that's literally impossible for LHE players playing online except for maybe Hoss occasionally. it's especially frustrating for someone like me whos grinded out for so long to reach the same levels that they reach in a month.

you guys think this is a long term thing? i dont like this trend.


ps i know this is slightly off topic but i think it's important to discuss the future of high stakes limit holdem. if people who have experience with live play can chime in that would be nice too.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

i think it will depend a lot on how the tail end of the poker boom plays out. DS and Mason have said in the past that NL is just a fad because it busts the fish too fast, so the game just naturally dies. well this isn't true in the current dynamic where virtually every male college student and mid life crisis sufferer goes through a poker phase, specifically a NL texas holdem phase.


in ten years, if televised poker becomes as popular as those strong man competitions on ESPN, then i would guess limit is the place to be long term.

the next 5 to 10 years certainly belong to NL though. not that limit can't provide a living.

kind of sucks though since NL is like watching paint dry for me.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

This has been on my mind a lot over the past year. I just don't see anyone new to the game wanting to play LHE. And as far as that comment about " the next 5-10 years belong to nl" well.. how long do I really want to be playing this game? That seems like a pretty long time to have to wait for lhe to reverse the trend.

I started about a year ago mixing in nl games and now I am about 70-30 limit/nl and I think that will be changing more towards more nl. I would be interested to talk about winrates for comparable stakes say 5-10nl vs 20-40 or 30-60 lhe. Obviously one huge advantage nl has is the ability to play a million games at once.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

The money's bigger and easier to win in NL.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The money's bigger and easier to win in NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, those are pretty important factors that go into my decision thx.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think it will depend a lot on how the tail end of the poker boom plays out. DS and Mason have said in the past that NL is just a fad because it busts the fish too fast, so the game just naturally dies. well this isn't true in the current dynamic where virtually every male college student and mid life crisis sufferer goes through a poker phase, specifically a NL texas holdem phase.


in ten years, if televised poker becomes as popular as those strong man competitions on ESPN, then i would guess limit is the place to be long term.

the next 5 to 10 years certainly belong to NL though. not that limit can't provide a living.

kind of sucks though since NL is like watching paint dry for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes them think these guys will start playing limit poker after they bust out?

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

umm, did u see geo's thread? we pretty much discussed this to death.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
umm, did u see geo's thread? we pretty much discussed this to death.

[/ QUOTE ]


who is geo? Where is the thread? link?

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

IMO, there is definitley a lot more money in live NL than limit. Live limit games are greeat... but all my experiences with live NL make me want to play a lot more of it. Obviously online right now, the biggest winners are NL becomes more of the bigger games run, they run more consistently, and the players seem to have larger edges over their oponents. (sounds pretty clear cut right?) For non uber-ballers though, the gap is pretty close and it's not likely that we will know how it will play out in the future. The middle stakes NL games used to be great and now have tons of solid grinders. I think people forget it's easier to play more hands/hour at NL, so many of the grinders play more hands than limit players and people forget than when looking at their earn. Ultimatley it will pay to be competant at both and be able to choose the better games on a regular basis. I think the NL players will almost always be the top top earners if there is not a drastic change in the poker economy, but there is still plenty of money in limit and will be for some time.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

I commented on the thread and still didn't know what you were talking about. There were some comments about nl vs lhe but I don't see the harm in examining the issue further.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

Big NL just has huge short term swings. The games play much bigger. A guy gets lucky 5 hands in a row, playing 300/600 NL and he wins 500K in an hour. Even if you're playing 1k/2k fixed limit, you'll basically never run up 500k that fast. And it will be over many hands against the same guy so if you're running that hot, he's going to quit you more often than not. Those guys who are winning a million a month are not doing it every month. It's just a lot easier to see the wild outliers in NL. If you like FL better, stay there. There are plenty of fish and you'll win plenty of money. Obviously, though, less tv exposure = smaller player pool = less money. But not as much less as you seem to think.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

I'm hoping the trend towards PLO continues. At this point, I'm not sure if it's worth learning to play NL (for me specifically), but the PLO games still seem very, very good. Playing anything below 2/4NLHE or so is like watching paint dry, and tends to be filled with nits. In these games, it really feels playing any amount of mid/high SHLHE is a major hindrance. But, at 2/4 or so where things seem to get more aggressive, I think I'd get eaten alive until I picked up on the nuances of NLHE. I just don't know how many buy-ins I'd spew off before (if ever) getting things figured out.

My PLO game is competent, and I'm a winner up through 2/4 or so; haven't really played anything higher. Not to mention that just observing the O8 and Stud games in addition to playing the PLO games makes me think there's much greener pastures these days than trying to grind LHE. Basically, I think to the old adage about being well-rounded, and having the ability to play whatever looks good. I'm hoping to develop my O8 and Stud games to the point that I'll be able to jump into the 30/60+ games on Stars over the next year or so. Might be too ambitious, but we'll see.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

I think the UIGEA hurt limit games significantly more than NL games as the avg. age of a limit player tended to be older than a NL player and less likely to go through a lot of extra work to figure out how to get their money in and out of sites because they are probably less computer and Internet savvy.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

bankroll in relation to hourly rate is much smaller at nl. i think winrate of a decent 2/4nl and a decent 10/20 lhe is close to the same. proly around 50c a hand. i would say equivalent, fairly conservative, bankrolls are 8k and 20k respectively.

naturally this shows that the downswings are indeed much smaller in relation to $/hand at nl.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

8k is way too small of a roll. Definitely not conservative. I understand 30 BI is considered "OK" and 50+ to be "conservative.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

If you're a solid winner at 2/4 and you don't play some sick super-LAG style then 20 BIs is definitely fine, especially if you're willing to move down. Probably more on par with 400-500BB bankroll than 1KBB bankroll for FL, though.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
bankroll in relation to hourly rate is much smaller at nl. i think winrate of a decent 2/4nl and a decent 10/20 lhe is close to the same. proly around 50c a hand. i would say equivalent, fairly conservative, bankrolls are 8k and 20k respectively.

naturally this shows that the downswings are indeed much smaller in relation to $/hand at nl.

[/ QUOTE ]

After 3-beting and 4-beting became so popular its next to impossible to play NLHE with 20 buy-ins unless losing half of your money in one hour doesnt bother you.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
bankroll in relation to hourly rate is much smaller at nl. i think winrate of a decent 2/4nl and a decent 10/20 lhe is close to the same. proly around 50c a hand. i would say equivalent, fairly conservative, bankrolls are 8k and 20k respectively.

I think that is a little on the high side for both nl and lhe. If your making 50cents a hands playing 2-4 nl then discussion is over because you will be able to crush your lhe winrate just on volume alone.

naturally this shows that the downswings are indeed much smaller in relation to $/hand at nl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

well, ive played like 30k hands of nl (2-4 to 5-10) and my biggest downswing was 6 buyins. suppose i just ran hot.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

"think that is a little on the high side for both nl and lhe. If your making 50cents a hands playing 2-4 nl then discussion is over because you will be able to crush your lhe winrate just on volume alone."

well, i dont mean sitting at every nl table available and crushing. i sit with fish. my nl table selection is far more stringent than limit simply bc its harder for me to recognize all but the super terrible players.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

Fair enough. I think the bottom line is how much more is a comparibly skilled nl player making vs a lhe player. If your making close to the same amount playing nl (victor) than I would conclude that nl games are much easier to beat relative to their lhe counterparts.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

"If your making close to the same amount playing nl (victor) than I would conclude that nl games are much easier to beat relative to their lhe counterparts."

agreed and well put. and i think that was what i was getting at with my comparison. imo 2/4nl is easier to beat than 10/20 limit for the same amount.

not sure if this is true at higher limits but i would imagine for me its easier to beat 30/60limit han 5/10 nl.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

I have been very worried about the strength of the limit community as well, and I think we are somewhat to blame for not "marketing" our game better. There is a perception amongst casual players that no-limit is the action game when the opposite is actually true. Whenever a casual player ends up in my game from a no-limit game I am sure to point in a joking manner how nice it is to see a turn card once in a while and have big multiway pots. Lets convince the fish that it is fun to make bad peels without having to call pot sized bets.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

Totally agree. I don't want to write a novel on this but hand reading is so key for any type of poker and lhe is far and away the best training ground for this and the main reason why I think lhe players can fast track the nl learning curve.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

Victor,

empty your pm box I just tried sending u a message.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

i don't care to speculate on the future of lhe because i think it's just that, speculation, and it is pretty silly to begin estimating when lhe will make a come back and how strongly, or when it will become extinct etc. because it's just impossible to know any of these things with the slightest degree of confidence.

lhe isn't as ripe for making money as it used to be but there is still definitely water in the well. thus, my plan is to keep sitting in the good lhe games while trying to peice together a nl game on the side/in my spare time. i think that is a wise approach for any lhe player these days.

also, i am sort of baffled as to why the popularity of lhe is waning. people say because they televise nl but like 5 years ago when the televising really started to take off it was LIMIT that was booming and continued to for the next 4 years or so, all the while they were still televising 95% nlhe. i don't see what catalyzed this collective movement away from lhe and towards nl. sure does suck though.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
bankroll in relation to hourly rate is much smaller at nl. i think winrate of a decent 2/4nl and a decent 10/20 lhe is close to the same. proly around 50c a hand. i would say equivalent, fairly conservative, bankrolls are 8k and 20k respectively.

naturally this shows that the downswings are indeed much smaller in relation to $/hand at nl.

[/ QUOTE ]

After 3-beting and 4-beting became so popular its next to impossible to play NLHE with 20 buy-ins unless losing half of your money in one hour doesnt bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well, ive played like 30k hands of nl (2-4 to 5-10) and my biggest downswing was 6 buyins. suppose i just ran hot.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

actually it was 600ptbb = 12 buyins. right?

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't care to speculate on the future of lhe because i think it's just that, speculation, and it is pretty silly to begin estimating when lhe will make a come back and how strongly, or when it will become extinct etc. because it's just impossible to know any of these things with the slightest degree of confidence.

lhe isn't as ripe for making money as it used to be but there is still definitely water in the well. thus, my plan is to keep sitting in the good lhe games while trying to peice together a nl game on the side/in my spare time. i think that is a wise approach for any lhe player these days.

also, i am sort of baffled as to why the popularity of lhe is waning. people say because they televise nl but like 5 years ago when the televising really started to take off it was LIMIT that was booming and continued to for the next 4 years or so, all the while they were still televising 95% nlhe. i don't see what catalyzed this collective movement away from lhe and towards nl. sure does suck though.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about US legislation and the demise of party poker? Is it possible this is a factor?

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

As far as online play goes it's mostly a player volume thing, imo. If LHE had the same sized player pool it would probably push plenty of players up into the big 5/10 and 1k/2k, and as long as there was somewhat regular action to be had there a 1M month wouldn't be that uncommon.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't care to speculate on the future of lhe because i think it's just that, speculation, and it is pretty silly to begin estimating when lhe will make a come back and how strongly, or when it will become extinct etc. because it's just impossible to know any of these things with the slightest degree of confidence.

lhe isn't as ripe for making money as it used to be but there is still definitely water in the well. thus, my plan is to keep sitting in the good lhe games while trying to peice together a nl game on the side/in my spare time. i think that is a wise approach for any lhe player these days.

also, i am sort of baffled as to why the popularity of lhe is waning. people say because they televise nl but like 5 years ago when the televising really started to take off it was LIMIT that was booming and continued to for the next 4 years or so, all the while they were still televising 95% nlhe. i don't see what catalyzed this collective movement away from lhe and towards nl. sure does suck though.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about US legislation and the demise of party poker? Is it possible this is a factor?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see the relation (and im not being sarcastic) but i'm all ears if you want to explain.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

Hold'em is dying.

I've said this nine times this week: Everyone knows how to play hold'em. The fish are gone from online games. Limit has been first, NL will follow. Learn Stud, O8, Stud8 and other games, that's where the money is at online.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I've said this nine times this week

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish you would stop saying it because eventually people are going to listen.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

Once "they" listen it will be good to play hold em again.

-Michael

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well, ive played like 30k hands of nl (2-4 to 5-10) and my biggest downswing was 6 buyins. suppose i just ran hot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that you should expect to not have bigger downswings at those levels but it`s not that extraordinary. I played about 250K hands of MSNL and never had a >15BI downswing.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]

and i think that was what i was getting at with my comparison. imo 2/4nl is easier to beat than 10/20 limit for the same amount.


[/ QUOTE ]

It`s not even remotely close.

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

Wow I find that suprising. I have always found 10 20 fl pretty easy to beat, but my NL attempts just go down in flames every time.

Does anyone know of a basic opening ranges guideline for NLHE?

Re: no limit holdem/future of limit holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know of a basic opening ranges guideline for NLHE?

[/ QUOTE ]
Open anything playable