15/30 live
 

I'm somewhat new to this forum. I've known of its existence for awhile, but have been reluctant to post. I'm a predominantly live player trying to get into internet poker, through the advice of my friends, so this is one of my first posts. Be gentle.

The game has been playing fairly wild, with some very bad players throwing money around. Only myself and another player are playing tight. The action went like this:

Folded to me. I raise the cutoff, and I raise w/ Ac8s.
SB cold calls (loose passive bad player), BB calls (the only other TAG at the table)

Flop: 9s-Th-Js

Check, check, I bet, SB folds, BB TAG raises, I call.

Turn: 9s-Th-Js [Ah]

BB bets, I call.

River: 9s-Th-Js-Ah [Ac]

BB bets, I call.

BB shows AQ.

In retrospect I feel like I played this hand absolutely horribly, and somehow came out losing the minimum.

If I could redo my line, I'd probably raise the turn freeshowdown/ find out where I am, and decide from there, depending on whether I get 3bet and what comes on the river.

The line I took sucks, but is the revised one ok?

Re: 15/30 live
 

you probably lost the minimum as it was. the way it played out you likely would have been check raised on the river.

Re: 15/30 live
 

Welcome to the forum!

I raise the river probably. Fold to 3 bets given the description of your opponent. Calling is fine too if you know the guy well. Rest of the hand is fine.

Re: 15/30 live
 

I wouldn't raise this river.
What hand is calling us that we beat? If he C/R'ed his 2 pair on flop or QJ/KJ he won't call our River raise based on OP description. We can't beat an Ace, only tie... and I don't see our raise making him fold if he has a hand like A8.

I think the hand was played fine... both by Hero and Villian (actually people may disagree, but I 3-bet preflop if I'm villian).

Re: 15/30 live
 

nice avatar

Re: 15/30 live
 

I raise the river. TAGs should be value betting all Js and Ts here. Raising the turn is bad because getting 3-bet is terrible and a good chunk of villain's range with the number of 2 pairs that are now in villain's hand. I don't know whether I could fold to a 3-bet in a blind steal spot because I'm biased by the result.

Villain's non 3-bet preflop 3 ways is terrible.

Re: 15/30 live
 

I usually invite him to come on and feel the Illinoise and three bet the flop.

As played raise the river.

lol @ what's he calling you with.

Pocket threes for starters.

Re: 15/30 live
 

hand is played perfect imo. raising the river is an option, but depends a lot of the villian. a hand like KJ or QJ is a very big part of the villian range, and will pay off most of the time. KT K9s QT Q9 Asxs Tsxs 98, T8, J8, are all still in his range and may or may not pay off depending on the player. even JT T9, or J9 (though many players become so depressed once counterfeited they just sigh and check, it seems like only a certain type of player is able to continue to bet in rhythm).

So i guess what i am trying to say is that if you are raised you won't only be called by better hands, and that you won't always be called, and most importantly you will rarely be reraised.


nevertheless, i still don't think its an autoraise on the river, buy you can safely raise for *most* villians.


as another poster has suggested raising the turn is kind of disastrous since you still must call a reraise.

Re: 15/30 live
 

This looks to me like one of those hands where it might play out a bit differently live than it will online. I think online this is a pretty standard raise on the river. In live play, unless you pick up some sort of tell that the bb might be weak, I really like the line.

Given your description of the opponent, it does not seem like he will be putting in this much action if he did not hit the flop fairly hard. When he checkraises the flop I would narrow the range to a straight, straight draw (prob the high end), two pair, or a pair with an ace. He will bet the turn with all of these hands since he can now also represent an ace if he still only has a draw. Once you call the turn you really handcuff him if he has a draw. Since you were the preflop aggressor, he is going to think the ace hit you and that you will not fold. In a live game, I don't think he will fire the last barrel with a counterfeit two pair or a busted draw, so there is very little reason to raise, especially since the raise is only profitable if we can get a losing hand to call.

Keep in mind that we are not only trying to figure out what he has, we need to keep in mind what our actions are telling our opponent.

I think raising the turn is a bit spewy based on the strength of our hand against his range and the bad spot that getting three-bet will put us in.

Re: 15/30 live
 

I think it's worth adding that the blind steal nature of the hand and the possibility of it looking like hero missed his draw and is bluff-raising that makes villain likely to pay off with Js and maybe even Ts.

Re: 15/30 live
 

I thought I was against a straight, and for some reason that was the only hand in his range I could think of. Obv, he's betting any ace on the river. I thought raising the turn wasn't so bad, given the drawy nature of the board.

Re: 15/30 live
 

I think alot of you saying to just call the river wouldnt be saying that if OP didnt post results.

Re: 15/30 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think alot of you saying to just call the river wouldnt be saying that if OP didnt post results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually did not realize that results were posted until I read your post. I think that as played a river raise is a huge mistake. You need to think beyond "I have three aces, I should raise."

Re: 15/30 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think alot of you saying to just call the river wouldnt be saying that if OP didnt post results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually did not realize that results were posted until I read your post. I think that as played a river raise is a huge mistake. You need to think beyond "I have three aces, I should raise."

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because a lot of posters will only put an opponent on hands that they can beat. Raising the river is pure spewage.
I'm also not in love with the pre-flop play, especially against monkeys who will call two cold if their cards are the same color.

Re: 15/30 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think alot of you saying to just call the river wouldnt be saying that if OP didnt post results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually did not realize that results were posted until I read your post. I think that as played a river raise is a huge mistake. You need to think beyond "I have three aces, I should raise."

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because a lot of posters will only put an opponent on hands that they can beat. Raising the river is pure spewage.
I'm also not in love with the pre-flop play, especially against monkeys who will call two cold if their cards are the same color.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is fine, especially with a tight player in the big blind.

Re: 15/30 live
 

When I make that flop C-bet I know I'm going to get raised by even a moderatly aggressive player like 90% of the time yet I keep making them. If by some miracle I'm up agaisnt Joe passive what do we do on a turn brick? I know it's almost always correct to C-Bet HU, but in a 3-handed pot is this one of those boards that we know likely hit two CC'ers and we should forgo the C-bet?

Re: 15/30 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn is bad because getting 3-bet is terrible and a good chunk of villain's range with the number of 2 pairs that are now in villain's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are more draws than there are 2 pairs, plus sometimes you get 3b by a draw or by a worse hand who thinks you are semi-bluffing.

I think that unless this guy will 3 barrell any missed draw that you give up alot of value by not raising the turn. This is just a guess without counting any combos though.

Re: 15/30 live
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn is bad because getting 3-bet is terrible and a good chunk of villain's range with the number of 2 pairs that are now in villain's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are more draws than there are 2 pairs, plus sometimes you get 3b by a draw or by a worse hand who thinks you are semi-bluffing.

I think that unless this guy will 3 barrell any missed draw that you give up alot of value by not raising the turn. This is just a guess without counting any combos though.

[/ QUOTE ]

you realize this hand was played live right? you will very rarely get three bet from a draw live, or by any hand worse than A8 for that matter. i think a lot of the posts aren't taking this into account.

Re: 15/30 live
 

[ QUOTE ]

you realize this hand was played live right? you will very rarely get three bet from a draw live, or by any hand worse than A8 for that matter. i think a lot of the posts aren't taking this into account.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, thats why i said sometimes. my argument was not really hinging on the possibility though.

in fact, if this guy is TAG by live standards only, i think that is an argument for raising the turn and folding to a 3bet (you could fold the riv UI if you thought your 2pair outs were live).

Re: 15/30 live
 

i dont think u'd get 3 bet on the turn that often... the board is very dangerous for AQ... however, he might donk the river so u cant really buy a free show down..