Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

Ok, so how would you guys handle this?

I'm playing a NL tournament over a buddy's place. Biggest tournament he has ever had, 25 people showed up for a $50 buy-in.

So I'm playing at one of the three tables, and there is a friend of a friend dealing who deals out the flop, turn and river all at once face down, before the the pre-flop action is over.

now, normally I would have said something, but I had just gotten back from a smoke break and the deed was already done.

Well, there is a hefty raise and one caller. Then someone else, not in the hand, mistakenly mixes the mucked cards with the burncards and pre-dealt hand.

Well, now quite a bit of a row begins. some people want to take all of the cards (mucked and dealt) and reshuffle. Others say to just deal a new flop off of the remaining deck (since no cards had been exposed). Finally, my friend who is running the thing says to just deal off the deck and check it down.

Of course, one guy has AK and the other K4. the guy with the K4 spikes his 4 on the turn to take down the pot, and the guy with AK is furious, saying there is no way he would have lost on the flop as he would have made a sizable c-bet.

Anyways, big big argument erupts...

Personally, I think they should have been able to pay the hand out using the remaing cards in the deck.

How would you guys handle this? And what rules could be put in place to prevent this kind of thing in the future?

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

Probably redeal hand, I guess next best thing to do is shuffle those cards and deal a new flop. Obviously deal properly to stop it happening again [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

I think it would have been best to deal a new flop off the remaining deck. Wouldn't have upset me if I was in the hand and all the cards were reshuffled, but technically I guess there would be slightly more likely to be lower cards in play then because most people in the hand had already folded.

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

So you have 5 cards for the flop, turn and river, the 3 burn cards and about 16 mucked cards all mixed together? And you're unable to identify any of them?

1. If I could positively identify some of the cards I would pull them out. They would retain their position, ie. if it's a mucked card it stays as mucked, if it was the turn card then it will still be the turn. If there is any doubt about a card it goes back in the deck. I would then reshuffle the remaining cards and deal a new board. And make sure the dealer follows proper procedure.

The goal here is to maintain, to as much degree as possible, the original outcome.

This is important so I'll state it again. If there is any doubt about a card it goes back in the deck for a reshuffle. So if you ask about a card and get "I think..." or "I'm pretty sure......" for a response, then it goes back in the deck. And it might just be easier to put them all back in and deal an entire new board. Going to depend on how badly everything is messed up.

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

Dealing a new flop makes absolutely no difference as to proper play, so that's the correct answer.

The even more correct answer is to explain to these idiots that the point of a burn is not because cards are magic, but to prevent any possible mark on the card to be seen before the card is revealed to all. Dealing it all out ahead of time defeats the purpose entirely.

The still yet even more correct answer is to give the guy who deals that way a KITN.

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

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Dealing a new flop makes absolutely no difference as to proper play, so that's the correct answer.

The even more correct answer is to explain to these idiots that the point of a burn is not because cards are magic, but to prevent any possible mark on the card to be seen before the card is revealed to all. Dealing it all out ahead of time defeats the purpose entirely.

The still yet even more correct answer is to give the guy who deals that way a KITN.

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No arguement from me with this answer. My OP, like most other rules involving some type of dealing mishap, was to try to preserve as much of the "original" outcome as possible.

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

KITN is definetly a viable option.

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

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The still yet even more correct answer is to give the guy who deals and the idiot screwing with the deck who wasn't the dealer both a KITN.

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Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I'm playing at one of the three tables, and there is a friend of a friend dealing who deals out the flop, turn and river all at once face down, before the the pre-flop action is over.

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I've done this occasionally, as the host, so I can abdicate my dealing duties in a hand I'm not in and deal with floor/chef/hosting duties. Since I regularly check my decks after the game nights, I'm not TOO worried about a random hand exposing marked cards. I don't do it regularly.

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Well, there is a hefty raise and one caller. Then someone else, not in the hand, mistakenly mixes the mucked cards with the burncards and pre-dealt hand.

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So, action is still preflop and the board has not been exposed yet.

If there was no way to reduce the amount of mucked hands contaminating the rest of the stub, I might go with using the virgin stub only. Generally, I'd prefer the reshuffle/redeal of the hidden cards... but there can be NO risk that someone in the hand saw a mucked hand.

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who is running the thing says to just deal off the deck and check it down.

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Possibly the worst decision that he could make. He had to make a decision, but he didn't think that checking down thing through carefully.

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And what rules could be put in place to prevent this kind of thing in the future?

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No matter how many rules you have, something always comes up in the gaps. It's best to make reasonable decisions that impinge on the normal play of the game as little as possible.

Mistakes happen, especially in more casual home games.

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

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So I'm playing at one of the three tables, and there is a friend of a friend dealing who deals out the flop, turn and river all at once face down, before the the pre-flop action is over.


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I used to play in a bar game where the board was always dealt out like this because they didn't want a "dealer" who was also a player to have his grubby hands on the cards once the hand had started... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

I hate it when people deal it that way, it always seems to result in something getting [censored] up.

Re: Dealer mixes the Flop with muck cards
 

My own ruling here would be to consider the burn and flop cards to be four random cards that are not longer in the deck and proceed as normal with the stub you have left. If the bottom four cards of the stub somehow dropped into the muck, who would have a problem with that? This is the top four. They are all random and unexposed.

Mixing the mucked hands into the deck and reshuffling sound like a bad idea to me. When people fold, they do not usually throw high paint away. So for a guy with AK, the deck would now be richer with As and Ks. Mixing in low cards would reduce this richness.

Checking it down is probably the worst thing and simulates all-in protection in the online environment. I would have been pissed just like AK guy was.