pot odds question
 

Let's say I have 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and limp, with a total of five to the flop. The flop comes 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. So I have a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw, giving me 13 outs. If there are no raises in front of me, is it always right to call?

Re: pot odds question
 

You mean 5-5.5 outs. In that case you need 8.5:1, with 5 to the flop, any bet will give you at least 6:1, which is enough with implied odds. Generally, this would be an easy call, but it may depend on position. Closing the action, yes, easy call.

Also, see one of my previous hands: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=2#Post11193400 , this is also an easy action-closing call on a gutshot.

Re: pot odds question
 

by 13 outs you mean around 5!

Re: pot odds question
 

If you aren't closing the action, depending on the better, and who is left to act after you, this is also a situation, where I sometimes raise.

But yes, closing the action, and easy call.

Re: pot odds question
 

in a heartbeat i will peel with a gutter to the nuts getting 6-1 on the flop. with a bd frushdraw and maybe an out or a 1/2 an out for our pairs, i'll peel getting 5-1.

as is the case with so many situations in hold em when we have position and we are going to continue in the hand, raising is very often going to be best(maybe not in the 5sb scenario, but make the pot even 6sb or more and it is).

Re: pot odds question
 

So I'm not counting the backdoor flush draw as outs?

Re: pot odds question
 

BDFD is worth somewhere between 1 and 1.5 outs. You aren't counting it as 9 outs are you?

Re: pot odds question
 

Well I'm certainly not now..

Re: pot odds question
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I'm not counting the backdoor flush draw as outs?

[/ QUOTE ]
Your "backdoor" flush draw counts as about 1.5 out and gutshot as 4. Read the counting outs section in sshe and this will be covered.

Re: pot odds question
 

Been beaten to it!

Re: pot odds question
 

The keys here are that your gutshot is to the nuts and there are no other draws present on the flop. If your straight draw was not to the nuts (for example, 87s on a JT4r flop) and/or there was a potential flush draw showing, you want to be a bit more careful about making that flop call, especially if you're not closing the action.

Re: pot odds question
 

adding to comments:

you should also consider your implied odds if you make your gutshot. if the flop bettor comes from your immediate left then you have a great shot of checkraising the entire field on the turn when you make your straight. in this case, you should call the flop even when getting improper odds.

Re: pot odds question
 

was the 15 outs comment a joke?

Re: pot odds question
 

"hold'em on the come" is a nice book. I suggest reading that, count [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It really helped me, anyway. It really opened my eyes that only implied odds matter, and also to other little things, such as not every straight draw being 8 outs.

Re: pot odds question
 

Thanks, that's what I thought. A young guy who is a decent player questioned my calling in this situation (I hit the 6h for my straight and beat his two pair), and I told him with a gutshot draw to the nuts + a backdoor flush draw there was no way I was folding in that situation. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a mistake. I have been a bit nitty in the past re: gutters, and I'm trying to open up a little in that spot.

Re: pot odds question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, that's what I thought. A young guy who is a decent player questioned my calling in this situation (I hit the 6h for my straight and beat his two pair), and I told him with a gutshot draw to the nuts + a backdoor flush draw there was no way I was folding in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless he's a friend of yours or something, the standard answer any time a person questions one of your poker moves is "felt lucky". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: pot odds question
 

LOL I will remember that one.

Re: pot odds question
 

Sounds like maybe you had a gut shot and OESD mixed up as far as your outs went. You dont have to explain your call to that guy. Don't make him any smarter than he needs to be. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] NH

Re: pot odds question
 

ty. Would a call still be warranted if there were only 3 to the flop? I'm thinking with implied odds that it would be.
And yes, sadly, I was not aware of not counting my full BDFD outs until the turn puts two of my suit out there. Probably because I had for the longest time been prone to folding BDSDs, but am opening up my game and not being so nitty.

Re: pot odds question
 

That hidden outs part of SSHE is a real gem as well as the counting outs part.

(Doesn't apply to this hand but the overard section as well changed my game as far as draws & outs go also)

Re: pot odds question
 

Yeah I have to get that book. I started my poker journey in NL tournaments, and so I have Harrington Vol. 1, Hellmuth's first book, and Sklansky's Hold'em for Advanced Players. But I now firmly believe that limit hold'em requires more skill than NL, which suits me just fine.

Re: pot odds question
 

I definitely see the turn on this original 78suited hand if I am closing the action or even if only 1 or 2 are behind and they play very passive and rarely raise.
Bet size doesn't increase until the turn so if I am in LP or closing the action after the flop I will call with almost any decent draw, pocket pair or paired card especailly if the pot is big.