Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

I've been trying to decide between FTP and PokerStars to start a serious roll on. It seems like there are so many posts with FTP is rigged. Now, I don't think any poker site is rigged; however, it does seem like much craizer stuff happens on FTP. So maybe PokerStars is a better option? My plan is to move up to the next level each time I have 20 buy-ins for it. I plan to play anywhere from 6-9 tables, 3-5k hands a day. The goal is to start at 25 nl and at the end of a month end at 200 or 400 nl. Is this possible to accomplish in the time i've given myself and the amount of hands I plan to play? Thanks in advance.
-Cragg

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

Whats agressive about 20 buy-ins for the next level?
This is the most standard br management out there.

People who complain about a site beeing rigged don't know variance, thats all there is to it.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

FTP has rakeback and a 100% up to $600 first time deposit bonus. If you don't have an account there, sign up and make sure you get both.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

You will probably struggle to play well when playing that many hands per day. FTP has rb/boni which are pretty good. Also I think that you are being very optimistic about reaching that high in just 1 month.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

no.

You'll be doing good to get to 100 NL.

FWIW, FTP has a lot more action than Stars in my experience. Stars games are way too nitty. FTP also has rakeback and an equivalent point system to Stars.

Also, I'd suggest you to only play 1000/2000 hands per day and spend a lot of time reviewing the big hands you lost/won and figure out a more optimal way to play them. Just getting in 3/4k hands a day in without review isn't that great of an idea.

This is assuming you have no experience at cash games previously.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

He thinks about sites being rigged and never had a serious bankroll, he probably doesn't have that much experience...

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

FTP is rigged. I am breakeven for 10k, rigged for sure.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
FTP is rigged. I am breakeven for 10k, rigged for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

i lost with my aces on stars, now whats teh most rigged!?

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

Crag that sounds very aggressive. Why are you chasing limits if I may ask? I'm adopting a similar bankroll strategy - moving up every 20 buy-ins at the next level (and down when I hit 30 buy-in's at the current level) but I'm only planning to move up when I'm comfortable at the current level and my win-rate is such that even with variance I'm happy that I'm beating the level. I'm also slowing down on the multi-tabling so that I can focus on playing better quality poker. Of course that's my course. If you're chasing sustainability, I would suggest that's a better route to follow because if you go on a rush you might even make it all the way up the limits as you're aiming to do but inevitably the variance is going to bring you crashing back down and believe me, its NOT better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all........

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FTP is rigged. I am breakeven for 10k, rigged for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

i lost with my aces on stars, now whats teh most rigged!?

[/ QUOTE ]

FTP obvisouly.

Brag: I am breakeven in 10K, yet I did not loose a single AA hand [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Beat: I lost almost every single set 100BB and over.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

brag: 4.54 PTBB over 15k hands at FTP

beat: lose every set with TT, but 3 and 2 pots with AA for over 300 BB

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

ftp is rigged

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

Does any one think that you may need a bigger BR than 20BI if you are 6 - 9 tableing. I play 25NL and 50NL (4 - 12 tables) and have a br of over 80BI for 25NL, mabye im just a nit

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

Thats actually a good point. Never thought about it but if you're 9-tabling, you're committing more than 1/2 your bank roll.... A buddy also sent me this interesting article written by Chris Ferguson:

April 30th, 2007

Starting from Zero
I had a losing streak there and had to go down to $5/$10. That was tough.
I'm almost a year into an experiment on Full Tilt Poker. I'm attempting to turn $0 into a $10,000 bankroll. With no money to start with, I had no choice but to start out playing Freerolls. Starting out, I'd often manage to win a dollar or two, but I'd quickly get busted and have to start over again. It took some time but, after awhile, I was eventually able to graduate to games that required an actual buy-in.

Even today, people don't believe it's really me when I sit down at Full Tilt's small stakes games. They ask what I'm doing down here, and often tell me stories about how they turned $5 into $500 or $100 into $1,000. Usually, these stories end with the person telling me that they went broke. There's no surprise there. These folks tried to quickly build a bankroll by gambling. They'd play in a game that was beyond their bankroll and, if they happened to win, they'd move up to a higher limit and risk it all one more time. Inevitably, they'd lose a few big hands and go broke.

For me, this experiment isn't about the money. It's about showing how, with proper bankroll management, you can start from nothing and move up to the point where you're playing in some pretty big games. I know it's possible because I did it once before, turning $1 into $20,000.

To ensure that I keep my bankroll intact, I've adopted some key rules:

I'll never buy into a cash game or a Sit & Go with more than 5 percent of my total bankroll (there is an exception for the lowest limits: I'm allowed to buy into any game with a buy-in of $2.50 or less).
I won't buy into a multi-table tournament for more than 2 percent of my total bankroll and I'm allowed to buy into any multi-table tournament that costs $1.
If at any time during a No-Limit or Pot-Limit cash-game session the money on the table represents more than 10 percent of my total bankroll, I must leave the game when the blinds reach me.
I think a lot of players would do well to apply these rules. One great benefit from this approach to bankroll management is that it ensures you'll be playing in games you can afford. You'll never play for very long in a game that's over your head because, when you're losing, you'll have no choice but to drop down to a smaller game. You can continue to sharpen your game at that lower limit until your bankroll allows you to move up and take another shot. These rules also prevent you from being completely decimated by a bad run of cards.

Dropping down and playing lower limits is difficult for a lot of players. They view it as a failure and their egos get in the way. Many want to remain at the level they'd been playing and win back their losses. But this can lead to some pretty severe tilt - and that can go through a bankroll in a hurry. I know that dropping down was difficult for me in my run from $1 to $20,000. When I first played in the $25/$50 game, I lost. Sticking to my rules, I dropped down to the $10/$25 game. I had a losing streak there and had to go down to $5/$10. That was tough. After playing $25/$50, a $5/$10 game was boring to me.

But I had the discipline to stick to my rules, and that motivated me to play better at the lower levels. I really didn't want to lose any more because I knew the consequences: I'd have to play even lower and work even harder to get back to where I'd been, which could take as long as a month. If you ever find yourself bored or frustrated playing at the lower limits, you're obviously not playing well. Take a break from the game. Often, stepping away can give you a fresh perspective and heightened motivation to play well when you return.

There are a couple of more tips I'd like to share regarding bankroll management. First, you should never play in a game that is beyond your bankroll simply because the game seems to be soft that day. It's never soft enough to risk money that puts your bankroll in jeopardy. The other point is that you should avoid playing in games that are at the top of your bankroll limits, when a lower game offers more opportunity for profit.

I'm confident that by sticking to these sound bankroll management rules, I'll make it to my $10,000 goal. These rules are sure to help you as well, as you pursue your own poker ambitions. So, if you want to start your own quest - or play against me while I'm continuing with mine - come open a free account at Full Tilt Poker and look for me online. But hurry, because I'm hoping I won't be in the lower limits for too much longer.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

you should be playing 100NL/200NL if you have 2k. You're missing out on a lot of money by staying at 25.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

Really? I play good 12 tableing and I think that this is due to the fact that I am not worreid about loosing a BI.

Also if I do intend to 12 table i really dont think i should have over 1/2 my BR out. I do play 1 or 2 tables of 100NL with my 12 tables tho.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

I'd drop down to 4 tables and play 100 NL for 20k Hands.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

12 tabling isn't really poker.. Its well, 12 tabling.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

For everyone saying that I think online poker is rigged I thought I said I knew it didnt in the first post? If that wasnt clear let me be clear here: I know they arent. Period. Yes, I have previous cash game experience (cashed out a total of $1300 from PokerStars playing strictly 25 nl). Yes, I understand variance which is why I plan to play a lot of hands to *Minimize* variance. Im asking in my post both is it realistic and optmistic to be able to move up even to 200 nl starting from 25 nl playing a somewhat LAG style (6 max obv) in a month's time? Thanks again
-Cragg

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

No. It will take about 3 month if you are good.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

No its not realistic. You are starting at around 500 I assume? You need to get to 4000 to be rolled for 200nl...do you see the issue with this? Try to get properly rolled for just 100nl this month and youll have had one heck of a month.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

that chris ferguson thing is awesome, i remember starting a thread about that at another forum ages ago but i didn't think he was actually DOING it for real.

when i saw him playing 50/1 tables at FTP the other night i was like OMG he is still doing it!

can you imagine the accomplishment if he can manage to do this?

i've tried turning $1 into a big roll numerous times following the tips he talks about but i just dont know how someone with that much money can do it.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No its not realistic. You are starting at around 500 I assume? You need to get to 4000 to be rolled for 200nl...do you see the issue with this? Try to get properly rolled for just 100nl this month and youll have had one heck of a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I figure with the amount of hands im playing each day (3kish most likely), 2 buy-ins a day (averaged over the month) is very very doable. With that in mind, I would have 20 buy-ins for 200 nl at the end of the month - $4k. And yes, I would be starting with $500. I should add in, I also play the 400 FPP rebuy and 500 FPP satellites into sunday million so if I add in 4 wins total for a month I think it should make reaching nl 200 by the end of the month quite easy to accomplish.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

craggoo if you think its easy then dont ask us... if poker were that easy then there wouldnt be a microstakes forum.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

LAG style at 25 NL really isn't the optimal play. Too many people go over board 3betting light from the blinds when they don't even have a read on their villain. This is to be avoided.

In my opinion, a 22/20 or 20/18 sytle is perfect. Some might consider this lag, but I consider it solid play.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does any one think that you may need a bigger BR than 20BI if you are 6 - 9 tableing. I play 25NL and 50NL (4 - 12 tables) and have a br of over 80BI for 25NL, mabye im just a nit

[/ QUOTE ]

80bi for 25NL is crazy. At least move up to 50NL.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
that chris ferguson thing is awesome, i remember starting a thread about that at another forum ages ago but i didn't think he was actually DOING it for real.

when i saw him playing 50/1 tables at FTP the other night i was like OMG he is still doing it!

can you imagine the accomplishment if he can manage to do this?

i've tried turning $1 into a big roll numerous times following the tips he talks about but i just dont know how someone with that much money can do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a FTP pro. They get 35 dollars an hour and full rakeback just to play...so yeah, he is grinding, but it's at a larger hourly rate than you'd think.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
LAG style at 25 NL really isn't the optimal play. Too many people go over board 3betting light from the blinds when they don't even have a read on their villain. This is to be avoided.

In my opinion, a 22/20 or 20/18 sytle is perfect. Some might consider this lag, but I consider it solid play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 22/18 is closer to optimal as the other 2% should be decent hands called in position rather than 3bet aggainst certain villains.... especially those prone to stacking off with over pairs without much $ in the pot

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

I think its realistic with the amount of hands your talking about playing, of course you'll have to run decent

a good site to start at would be absolute, simply b/c you can buy in for 200bb and people are super bad deep especially at 25nl and 50nl...... so you winrate will be higher, also, 30% rakeback and good bonuses.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

Ftp has a rakeback, bonus, and looser games.

self explanatory.

dont rush your BR just make +Ev plays and the $ will come.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does any one think that you may need a bigger BR than 20BI if you are 6 - 9 tableing. I play 25NL and 50NL (4 - 12 tables) and have a br of over 80BI for 25NL, mabye im just a nit

[/ QUOTE ]

80bi for 25NL is crazy. At least move up to 50NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, I think playing overrolled is way better than underrolled, 20 bi is plenty 4 tabling, but if your playing more than that I think your roll needs to be exponentially higher....... read jman's blog at cardrunners today, its pretty good, there will be a point in your poker career where you run so bad you never knew it was possible, its important to be able to move down during this period and also to be properly rolled, 20 bi downswings happen, I mean I am the biggest nit alive, i play with the minimum of 100 usually a lot more than that.... read this for bankroll management, I wrote it awhile ago and it only applies for those of you who plan on moving up slowly and learning the game

bankroll managemnt by dex

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

yeah if you can get to 2k id be suprised.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

I think its doable but you have to run pretty hot and already be a decent winner at the level. I ran at 9 PTBB/100 over something like 20k hands (and 10kish breakeven that weren't on my computer I think). I finished up 1k from this to go from 50-100. At 100 I immediately ran super-hot over 2-3k hands at 30 PTBB/100 and now have the roll for 200NL.

so yeah, possible, but holy [censored] I ran good lol. I also won't be moving up. I'm just going to cash out about a grand and try to work it back up to a 200 bankroll. If I can do that I figure I'm probably good enough to start taking shots at 200.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that chris ferguson thing is awesome, i remember starting a thread about that at another forum ages ago but i didn't think he was actually DOING it for real.

when i saw him playing 50/1 tables at FTP the other night i was like OMG he is still doing it!

can you imagine the accomplishment if he can manage to do this?

i've tried turning $1 into a big roll numerous times following the tips he talks about but i just dont know how someone with that much money can do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a FTP pro. They get 35 dollars an hour and full rakeback just to play...so yeah, he is grinding, but it's at a larger hourly rate than you'd think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope he's not including that in his winrate/BR. Kinda spoils the challenge if he is. Actually thinking about it I'm pretty sure he's not including his pro money otherwise he'd have got through the micro's really quickly.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No its not realistic. You are starting at around 500 I assume? You need to get to 4000 to be rolled for 200nl...do you see the issue with this? Try to get properly rolled for just 100nl this month and youll have had one heck of a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I figure with the amount of hands im playing each day (3kish most likely), 2 buy-ins a day (averaged over the month) is very very doable. With that in mind, I would have 20 buy-ins for 200 nl at the end of the month - $4k. And yes, I would be starting with $500. I should add in, I also play the 400 FPP rebuy and 500 FPP satellites into sunday million so if I add in 4 wins total for a month I think it should make reaching nl 200 by the end of the month quite easy to accomplish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I mean if you put it that way, you could just win the Sunday Millions and be rolled for most limits.

According to your math you are looking at roughly 90,000 hands in the month. That is an extremely large amount of hands to play in one month and not get burned out on. If you do more power to you and you may be able to get there. But You will have to watch that with such a large amount of hands played that you will face fatigue and burnout which will hurt results.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

No, I just unregister from the tourney and sell the T$ to a buddy on AIM. I promise you, I won't get burned out [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. I used to do a 24 hour session (live) every weekend at the casino. This kind of thing is something I can totally handle.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No its not realistic. You are starting at around 500 I assume? You need to get to 4000 to be rolled for 200nl...do you see the issue with this? Try to get properly rolled for just 100nl this month and youll have had one heck of a month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I figure with the amount of hands im playing each day (3kish most likely), 2 buy-ins a day (averaged over the month) is very very doable. With that in mind, I would have 20 buy-ins for 200 nl at the end of the month - $4k. And yes, I would be starting with $500. I should add in, I also play the 400 FPP rebuy and 500 FPP satellites into sunday million so if I add in 4 wins total for a month I think it should make reaching nl 200 by the end of the month quite easy to accomplish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I mean if you put it that way, you could just win the Sunday Millions and be rolled for most limits.

According to your math you are looking at roughly 90,000 hands in the month. That is an extremely large amount of hands to play in one month and not get burned out on. If you do more power to you and you may be able to get there. But You will have to watch that with such a large amount of hands played that you will face fatigue and burnout which will hurt results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think 90k is unreasonable for a month for a full-time player, I work full time and play poker part time and i get in 50-60k hands a month only playing 20-25 hours a week, A full time player should be playing 45-50 at the minimum, I think the goal should be like 110k hands.

Re: Aggressive BR management strategy + site to try on?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does any one think that you may need a bigger BR than 20BI if you are 6 - 9 tableing. I play 25NL and 50NL (4 - 12 tables) and have a br of over 80BI for 25NL, mabye im just a nit

[/ QUOTE ]

80bi for 25NL is crazy. At least move up to 50NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, I think playing overrolled is way better than underrolled, 20 bi is plenty 4 tabling, but if your playing more than that I think your roll needs to be exponentially higher....... read jman's blog at cardrunners today, its pretty good, there will be a point in your poker career where you run so bad you never knew it was possible, its important to be able to move down during this period and also to be properly rolled, 20 bi downswings happen, I mean I am the biggest nit alive, i play with the minimum of 100 usually a lot more than that.... read this for bankroll management, I wrote it awhile ago and it only applies for those of you who plan on moving up slowly and learning the game

bankroll managemnt by dex

[/ QUOTE ]

I`m a pretty big bankroll nit myself. I use 30 buy ins for each given level. and will only move up to 200NL once I have 40 buy ins (8000$). But playing with 80BI at 25NL is given away +EV. You would make much more money playing 50NL and probably learn more. maybe you should cut down some tables. I play 4 to 8 tables, depends on my mood. 80BI is just not necessary, when you willing to move down if things go bad.

And I know big downswings happen. Just had one myself about 4 days ago, I played straight for 13 hrs, started loosing 11BI and won them back the same night playing about 7000 hands. No tilt just KK vs AA, sets getting beat etc ...