Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

I've been playing at a live 3/6 card room recently. Last night, the table was 8 handed with 3-4 LAGs that were 3-betting or capping with marginal hands. My image was tight, as I actually folded most hands, unlike the rest. I need some help figuring out this hand with the dynamics of this table...

I picked up A6 suited in middle position. 2 limpers, I call, 2 more calls and the big blind raises. Both limper and I call, but the Button raises. He could be slow-playing a big hand or just raising with low suited connectors or trash for fun. The big blind caps it (he is a LAG) and both limpers before me cold call (19 bets). It is very likely that both the caller and button after me will also call 4. Is this a situation where I cold-call 2 bets?

I wanted some views on playing Ax suited against a field of players like this where it can often be 6 players in the pot at 3 or 4 bets each. Is this a +EV situation or not?

A secondary question would be this:

If I do call pre-flop, what do I do if the flop has an Ace, is rainbow with one of my suit (backdoor flush), and it is 27 bets to me (The big blind bet and both limpers called)?

It is likely the button will raise and the Big Blind will re-raise. It could go to 4 bets again and get down to 3 or 4-handed...

Thanks for your input.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

If you play this preflop against lags, do everything you can to see a showdown postflop when you hit the A.

But you should fold preflop. When a lot of pots are capped playing a range of something like JJ+,AKs,AKo is probably the best thing to do. Don't play hands that need implied odds like axs, small pockets and suited connectors.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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When a lot of pots are capped playing a range of something like JJ+,AKs,AKo is probably the best thing to do.

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if this is all you're going to be playing you need to switch tables as you're going to be playing about 1 hand an hour if that, and whenever you raise pf everyone will fold. in addition, the blinds will eat you up. finally b/c you've folded so much, if you're lucky enough to get KK/AA in a multiway pot situation, you'll get married to it and pay thru the nose when you lose with it.

all suited broadways and all pockets are fine here because of limplied oods. Axs is usually fine as well as long as there are many people in the pot preflop.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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When a lot of pots are capped playing a range of something like JJ+,AKs,AKo is probably the best thing to do.

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if this is all you're going to be playing you need to switch tables as you're going to be playing about 1 hand an hour if that, and whenever you raise pf everyone will fold. in addition, the blinds will eat you up. finally b/c you've folded so much, if you're lucky enough to get KK/AA in a multiway pot situation, you'll get married to it and pay thru the nose when you lose with it.

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The one thing that is true is that you are going to play 1 hand an hour. I believe that in some Sklansky book he recommends playing only QQ+ in loose wild games.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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The one thing that is true is that you are going to play 1 hand an hour. I believe that in some Sklansky book he recommends playing only QQ+ in loose wild games.

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If you arent putting money in with donkeys if you have an equity edge then you arent maximizing your win. suited broadway cards have an equity edge multiway that is magnified when donkeys are capping PF with ATC. if you arent going to play ATs when people are capping with 32s then you arent playing correctly.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

I'm not saying that you can't add more hands to this range: i'm pretty sure it's not an optimal range. But I think it's a good range for the OP to start with. It's lower variance, easy, safe and probably a lot better then his current strategy.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

If you are comfortable at a table like(sounds like you aren't quite yet and that's okay)then you have to be willing to hang with the players with hands like any pairs, suited aces and higher suited connectors and of course big high cards like AK. Stay clear of the small suited connectors and unsuited lower broadways IMO. I learned this here on the forum from a vet and it really helped my game a lot in wild games when the occur. The variance is greater obviously in a gem like this but the fact that you are going in with stronger hands overall should be better for your game. When I first played in a really wild live game it freaked me out cause I had never been through one before. Strap in but be ready

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

The problem with games like this, and the reason S&M advocate playing sooooo tight preflop in wild games, is that with the pot so huge, folding becomes a mistake when you catch any reasonable piece of the flop. So you wind up getting stuck in enormous pots, drawing (correctly) to 4 or 5 outs, for 3-4 SB's on the flop, and another 2-3 BB on the turn. It doesn't take many of those to blow through a buy-in.

The best (and only effective) strategy for avoiding ridiculous variance in such games is to sacrifice some small preflop edges by throwing away marginally +EV hands preflop. A6s is just such a hand and I wouldn't play it in this spot given these table dynamics without 60BB or more in your session bankroll. Probably pairs 99 and up, A9s or ATs and up, and AK is a good starting point on a "regular" buy-in IMO.

Mook

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

This definitely was a wild 3/6 table... In 3 hours, I was down 25 BB's. It was my worst session ever. I wasn't connecting with many flops...

Frond: I know this table can be profitable, but what kind of variance have you experienced? In your opinion, what are the most common leaks at a table like this... Why is a hand like 87s not playable against 5-6 players for 2 bets?

Mook: You are right... the pots got so large that in many cases, I was calling/raising with correct odds after catching a piece or draw.

In frustration, I began to play looser in middle position a bit and play hands that are for late position only: Ex. calling with 75s, KTs, QJo, etc... Sometimes, hands weren't being raised pre-flop but 6 or 7 out of 8 players were in, so I began hoping I could hit the flop hard without a raise... There was just so much dead money going in... Sounds like this was the wrong approach... I was gambling that the LAG's wouldn't go "wild" on that hand...

I do need more experience playing at table withs 3+ LAG's... The advice I hear most is to tighten up a lot pre-flop. I re-read the pre-flop section in SSHE and it helped...

Thanks all...

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

The key for me in this type of game is whether or not I've been hitting some flops. Math People can say +EV and pot odds are the main (only) consideration but if I'm not hitting flops I don't get into a pot at these types of games without medium pocket pairs or equivalent unless I'm closing the bet and know how much seeing the flop is gonna cost me. Then I'll look with 5-5, Q-Js, Axs, etc. It gets frustrating watching donkeys drag down these monster pots with 9-6os, or seeing that you would have hit runner/runner to win the hand but if you start counting on runner/runner to win then you'll be broke sooner rather than later. Wait till you hit a couple of flops then stick your nose in there a little more often, hoping the poker gods are starting to smile upon you.

It seems there are three types of players at these LAG games: 1) the tight player that sits at the table forever, nursing his stack and pulling down a pot once every hour and a half. 2) The one or two luck boxes who are hitting any two cards they play and have a mountain of chips in front of them, and 3) the twenty or thirty players that sit down, get caught up in the craziness and go broke in an hour and find themselves sitting behind the old-lady at the slot-machines watching her play. If you're not in group two, then be in group one.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

Kit's reply was spot.

Hey Coach, a lot of players here(me included) have had 25 to 100+++BB swings so it might seem like a lot for 3 hours but it really isn't that much. Just hang in there

With the smaller suited connectors it is normally good to try and get in cheaply if you can. If your your small-medium suited connectors miss the flop as far as any str8 or flush goes, they have a tough time holding up when you pair just one of your 2 cards. Then you may become tied to the pot with a marg holding. When you have a strong higher suited connector like say QKs and you pair one of your cards it becomes a much stronger hand when you miss your flush and str8 draws. I do know of some players who will cold call 3 bets with a hand like 34s at a wild table but I don't care for this at all. As far as pairs go, still try and get in as cheap as possible with small-med pairs & suited Aces OOP if you can. Just make sure your post flop play is as solid as it can be because you will be bailing on a lot of flops when you don't hit your set, str8 or flush draws. It takes some adjusting to a game like this for sure, but if you continue to fold everything you will get blinded off and miss some good opps to make big hands and take down some monster pots. It doesn't take too many huge pots at this game to book a rather nice win.

I love to play Suited Ace hands in a game like this but I feel that I am pretty good post flop and I am looking to flush up and I can bail on the flop if I need to. To me it is worth a few extra bets to play suited Ace hands, pairs etc. cause in a 3 hour session how many suited aces, pairs and high suited connectors do we typically see? For the times we miss on the flop vs. the few pots we win that are ginormeeeous it can more than make up for the extra bets here and there. Just my style. Some will disagree completely I'm sure though. Just don't get flip about the game and start playing every hand & cold calling everything. Pace yourself into it. It can be a lot of fun.

Oh and keep track of who is raisng 3 betting with what cards.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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The key for me in this type of game is whether or not I've been hitting some flops. Math People can say +EV and pot odds are the main (only) consideration but if I'm not hitting flops I don't get into a pot at these types of games without medium pocket pairs or equivalent unless I'm closing the bet and know how much seeing the flop is gonna cost me. Then I'll look with 5-5, Q-Js, Axs, etc. It gets frustrating watching donkeys drag down these monster pots with 9-6os, or seeing that you would have hit runner/runner to win the hand but if you start counting on runner/runner to win then you'll be broke sooner rather than later. Wait till you hit a couple of flops then stick your nose in there a little more often, hoping the poker gods are starting to smile upon you.


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I can't tell if you are kidding or stupid.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

must be stupid 'cause I wasn't kidding

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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This definitely was a wild 3/6 table... In 3 hours, I was down 25 BB's. It was my worst session ever.


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With a couple of LAGs doing lots of preflop raising, posting kills, ect, I generally stay away from hands like Axs, where x is less than T. If the LAGs are really bad post flop too, then this might be ok, but will be high variance.

I was in a 3/6 game Friday night that was passive, till a couple of LAGs joined the table. Had pocket aces that made aces full of sevens beaten by quad sevens. I was down around 25 BB at that point. I made most of it back on one huge pot and left -2 BB. Really high variance.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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This definitely was a wild 3/6 table... In 3 hours, I was down 25 BB's. It was my worst session ever.


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With a couple of LAGs doing lots of preflop raising, posting kills, ect, I generally stay away from hands like Axs, where x is less than T. If the LAGs are really bad post flop too, then this might be ok, but will be high variance.

I was in a 3/6 game Friday night that was passive, till a couple of LAGs joined the table. Had pocket aces that made aces full of sevens beaten by quad sevens. I was down around 25 BB at that point. I made most of it back on one huge pot and left -2 BB. Really high variance.

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high variance is unavoidable in this type of game...if you cant stomach the swings you prob should switch tables imo

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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high variance is unavoidable in this type of game...if you cant stomach the swings you prob should switch tables imo

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I agree. The variance really doesn’t bother me. I always bring 60-80 BB with me in case the game gets wild. Original poster seemed concerned about a 25 BB downswing, but I think that is pretty normal in a game with LAGs. Heck, I’ve been –25BB in a passive game, when I was running really bad.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

do you also believe in flop lag?

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The key for me in this type of game is whether or not I've been hitting some flops.

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Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

I love games like this, but prepare yourself for bad beats. You will lose with AA and KK to 9-6off and the like and it will be costly, but on the flip side when you do win you'll win huge pots that will more than make up for it.

IMO the key is position. I would fold Axs, suited connectors, and low pocket pairs in EP and MP if people are 3 or 4-betting preflop most of the time. At the same time I'll loosen way up if I can see a flop for one or two bets in LP.

Basically play very nittish in EP and MP and very loose in LP when it's cheap. Punish them when you have a hand. Don't get too married to AA or KK(If you're concerned enough to be in this forum you probably know when you're beat with these hands)

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

I was going to start a new thread but since this is already going it would be easier.

I just got back from a short live 4/8 session that started out LP for about 30 minutes but somebody flipped a switch on this one guy and he started raising every hand, 3 betting, capping etc. Every single hand and also cold calling anything. His PF hand requirements were 3 important ones: either both cards black, both red or one black and one red card. You get the picture. Anyways, he starts with the maniac play. Right away the whole table (except for me and maybe one other girl)is cold calling and 3 betting, capping thinking that he is FOS. He was raising with all marg hands but he was on a flop rush and kept hitting 2 pairs, str8s etc and he won about 5 racks after being down from about $60. I was willing to bang with this table but never got much to play. The thing I really took notice of was how people were willing to play and cold call marg hands against him, in position and out of position. His influence on most of the table was amazing. Everyone (save me and the girl) were all playing marg hands against him. He'd raise PF, and people would call with 39s etc. I saw lots of people lose a lot very quickly cause they were playing the wrong kinds of hands. I was dying for some pairs, high suited connectors or some suited aces in pos.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

good question...a situation i struggle with too....and a lot of great advice from others...

my small contribution to the discussion....

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In frustration, I began to play looser in middle position a bit and play hands that are for late position only: Ex. calling with 75s, KTs, QJo, etc... Sometimes, hands weren't being raised pre-flop but 6 or 7 out of 8 players were in, so I began hoping I could hit the flop hard without a raise... There was just so much dead money going in... Sounds like this was the wrong approach... I was gambling that the LAG's wouldn't go "wild" on that hand...


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in those situations if you got in for a call preflop i think you made a good bet...i believe all pairs, Axs, Kxs, Q8s+, J7s+, no gap suited 43s+, 1 gap suited 53s+, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JT+, are all playable hands when lots of limpers no raise...but the difficulty in using such a wide range is, as you note, being raised from behind when playing a hand in the lower part of this range...

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I do need more experience playing at table withs 3+ LAG's... The advice I hear most is to tighten up a lot pre-flop. I re-read the pre-flop section in SSHE and it helped...

Thanks all...

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going back to SSHE is an excellent move--i did that too...i don't really have a statistical analysis/simulation to backup what would be the best adjustment---

yet in the situation you describe i think a general concept could be applied to come up with good adjustment--at least this is what i do

i try to play the starting hand recommendations a little different than stated in the book SSHE...my thinking is with lots of betting preflop i will not necessarily get the implied odds on later rounds to justify using the "loose" game starting hands, so i use the "tight" game starting hands but discount bets from the uber-LAG preflop -- that is if two bets to me and one raise was due to the uberLAG i play as if it is only 1 bet to me to call...his betting is probably a large part baloney...

postflop i count the outs and hope to have enough to stay in...but its a lot of flops seen and folded and i figure in won't start an hand without 12bb's.

don't really know if what is do is best, but playing strictly to the starting hand charts resulted in few hands played and when i did catch a hand, little action postflop...

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

It is clear that you were not comfortable feeling "surrounded" by LAG's. If you aren't ready for the high variance those tables will produce, there is no problem asking for a table change to try and find LAPland.

But these games are profitable if you take a longer view than one session. I play a lot of these wild sessions at 4/8 and just went through a two month -200BB fluctuation. My limit in a session is -40 BB.

We know:

1) That long term these LAGs are action junkies, not winners.
2) These pots have LOTS of dead $ in them.
3) In your OP Axs is an EV+ holding.
4) While you would like to play it for one SB, what hurts is that you are playing it for 4SBs. But the number of SBs does not alter the fact that you are EV+.
5) 3) & 4) together are your variance. If you do not connect with these boards, your stack will shrink, even though all your bets were EV+.

Emotionally, it is part of the learning curves on these games to puch to play each hand properly regardless of where you are in your session. That is hard to do, but it is a big part of playing these games.

All it takes is about 2 of these big pots to make a winning session. I had AA last week and got chased by a family pot. NOBODY folded and they still held up. EV+ AND a little luck, sometimes.

So try and stay focused and play EACH HAND SEPARATELY. If your brain says you are EV+, call or raise, do not fold.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

Be it a given that any live Low LHE game you play in will be loose the next big things to consider are aggressiveness and position.
If the game is Loose/Passive (meaning 1 or at most 2 bets in before the flop) then you can limp in early, and play from almost any position with AXs, 55 and 78s type hands because you can be quite sure that the hand will play multiway and you can get in for cheap and win a big pot if you hit.

If the game is Loose/Aggressive or started passive but becomes more aggressive you have to tighten up what you play from early position because there is a chance it will be 3,4 bet or capped after you. Hands like AXs, 55 and 78s gain value from implied odds when you know the hand will be played multiway and not cost much to see the flop. When you play these from early pos in an aggressive game and it gets raised and 3 bet behind you and then everyone folds, the hand will not be multiway and you will now be playing an inferior hand, out of position against only two other players with probable dominant hands. Even worse you can be caught between two bettors who cap it and you are caught in the middle.

So if the game is aggressive I would limit starting hands in early position to maybe pairs 88 and up, big suited cards 10 and higher and offsuit AK, AQ and maybe KQ. You can start playing lesser hands in MP and LP especially if others have already limped and multiple maniac raisers are not still behind you.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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It is clear that you were not comfortable feeling "surrounded" by LAG's. If you aren't ready for the high variance those tables will produce, there is no problem asking for a table change to try and find LAPland.

But these games are profitable if you take a longer view than one session. I play a lot of these wild sessions at 4/8 and just went through a two month -200BB fluctuation. My limit in a session is -40 BB.

We know:

1) That long term these LAGs are action junkies, not winners.
2) These pots have LOTS of dead $ in them.
3) In your OP Axs is an EV+ holding.
4) While you would like to play it for one SB, what hurts is that you are playing it for 4SBs. But the number of SBs does not alter the fact that you are EV+.
5) 3) & 4) together are your variance. If you do not connect with these boards, your stack will shrink, even though all your bets were EV+.

Emotionally, it is part of the learning curves on these games to puch to play each hand properly regardless of where you are in your session. That is hard to do, but it is a big part of playing these games.

All it takes is about 2 of these big pots to make a winning session. I had AA last week and got chased by a family pot. NOBODY folded and they still held up. EV+ AND a little luck, sometimes.

So try and stay focused and play EACH HAND SEPARATELY. If your brain says you are EV+, call or raise, do not fold.

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fwiw i think these comments are spot on.

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

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His PF hand requirements were 3 important ones: either both cards black, both red or one black and one red card.

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So he wouldn't play anything w/ blue diamonds or green clovers?
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Playing Ax Suited at a LAG Live 3/6 Table...
 

No, no Lucky Charm cards [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I had the same thing last night but this guy brought in about 2k in chips and a rack of 1's to play with, oh and drinking a lot. Same thing, I went card dead when ever he enterted a pot so I couldn't play agianst hinm at all, I was bummed, but ready for battle.