Beginner plays AK
 

I'm just beginning to play real money Hold'em online after having read some books and playing a few thousand hands of play money at fulltilt. I'm looking for some comments on how I played this hand. Thanks!

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (8 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

At this point I'm trying to figure some pot odds calculations in effort to help with the decision on whether or not to call. Theres $4.50 in the pot (if my calcs are correct re-reading the hand history) giving me 9-1 pot odds to call in hopes to hit one of my overcards. (Two overcards with 1 card card to come I need 7-1 odds, and I have 2 cards to come so I'm well above odds needed to call... Correct?)

The board's not too scary except for the jack, and I see a win with my A or K hitting w/2 cards to come, if my opponent has a pair of jacks.

Turn: (6 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (8 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Ad Kd (one pair, aces).
Button has Qs Jc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 10 BB. </font>

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

Welcome to 2+2.

*grunch*
You dont have full 6 outs for overcards but u have probably about 5 heads up + 1 runner runner st8 so u can call.

I would probably c/r turn but i dont know is it optimal play cus opponnet can check behind.

BTW
Pls dont post reasult. Its no matter. Only good play is matter.

Edit: If u dont hit A or K at turn and villian is TAG then u probably should call down with A high unless hit Q or mayby T.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

The call on the flop is correct. Your logic is a little off - you need to discount overcard outs slightly. Also, don't look at the odds with 2 cards to come. If you do, you have to account for having to call turn bet. Facing a turn bet, you'd only have 6:1.

I like leading the turn here. Ace is a scare card for your opponent, since you raised preflop. He'd usually check behind and C/R will fail miserably.

All in all, I'd play the hand the same way.
Well done and welcome.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

nh sir. Looks fine to me.

Ideal flop (and # of opponents) for a c-bet. JJack is right, don't count all 6 outs, because your A or K could give villain two pair, i.e. danger of being reverse dominated.

It's gutsy to start at Stars' 0.50/1.00, not the softest games there, AFAIK.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

You can call, if you have four outs. Since you are HU you don't need to discount your overcards too much, four outs there perhaps. The backdoor is only worth half an out but still a call.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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It's gutsy to start at Stars' 0.50/1.00, not the softest games there, AFAIK.

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Well, I could never understand starting at .10/.20.
If you have proper bankroll, .50/.1 is just fine. Stars games at this level ain't that bad. Just make sure to drop down to .25/.50 if you start running real bad. And you will.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

Thanks for all the replies people, and from many countries! I really appreciate it. I have devoured about 6 books on Hold'em and developed a beginning strategy to play premium hands aggressively from any position, and some less premium hands that have strong possibilities in later position and the blinds. All of this of course, depending on the composition of the flop.

I have read about discounting outs, and am working on incorporating this into my strategy. One thing I'm confused about is whether discounting outs is done in conjunction with- or separate from simply trying to put a player on a hand or range of hands. I suppose you do both at the same time, but separately, in attempt to figure out the best strategy.

Maybe it can be said that outs are used to adjust probabilities when figuring out pot odds to call, etc., and putting people on hands is a separate part of poker strategy, to help decide the best possible move.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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nh sir. Looks fine to me.

Ideal flop (and # of opponents) for a c-bet. JJack is right, don't count all 6 outs, because your A or K could give villain two pair, i.e. danger of being reverse dominated.

It's gutsy to start at Stars' 0.50/1.00, not the softest games there, AFAIK.

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Thanks for the reply Guitierez. So where would you suggest a beginner look for softer games? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

Instead of 6 books, start with one book and plenty of play. Concentrate on Small Stakes Hold'Em (aka The Bible). Reading is no substitute for experience, trust me.
I recommend starting at PokerStars .25/.50 and posting/reading here a lot. Learn and see how the first 10-20K hands go.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

i dunno for others here but for me ITH(internet texas hold'em by hilger) is the first book to get your hands on!

i feel SSHE(small stakes hold'em) is the best second book ever for the only reason ,ITH is a little easier to read(concept,nice Q&amp;A after each chapter,etc.) and the preflop chart easier to follow for a beginner.
Of course SSHE is a better book with more stuff to learn then ITH,but ITH is just so easy to learn from, as a starting book,once u grasp ITH read,then SSHE will be so much better for u after,since u ll be able to apply SSHE to is full capacities.
Well for me it would of been if i knew at the start what ITH was instead of other worthlees book(ie: winning low limit...)

BTW,nh u played it correctly

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno for others here but for me ITH(internet texas hold'em by hilger) is the first book to get your hands on!

i feel SSHE(small stakes hold'em) is the best second book ever for the only reason ,ITH is a little easier to read(concept,nice Q&amp;A after each chapter,etc.) and the preflop chart easier to follow for a beginner.
Of course SSHE is a better book with more stuff to learn then ITH,but ITH is just so easy to learn from, as a starting book,once u grasp ITH read,then SSHE will be so much better for u after,since u ll be able to apply SSHE to is full capacities.
Well for me it would of been if i knew at the start what ITH was instead of other worthlees book(ie: winning low limit...)

BTW,nh u played it correctly

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I'll tell you what MC, that is the book, ITH, that I have been reading most and bringing to work with me to read during breaks.

It is just packed with information, and looks like it covers pretty much all of the angles that can occur as far as types of flops, and jeez, everything else that I can imagine. Although I am just a beginner.

As far as reading too many books like people have mentioned, that is definitely true, but I want to get an overview of what different authors publish, and what different players are using to develop their strategies. Even though I have too much information to incorporate it all into my play, I stick with a basic strategy while keeping other information in mind, so I can incorporate it as it makes sense.

What I've done so far, is put more time into my studies before beginning to play, than I believe most other players have put into their games, so I can feel confident that I have a pretty good shot at coming out ahead, after standard deviation puts me where I should actually be, relative to how well other beginning players play.

I am really impressed with ITH. I'm going to get his other book soon on Hold'em probabilities.

Thanks for the reply

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

alexost, yeah i heard is book on probabilities is good,but trust me:),after u read is second book,u seriously need to read SSHE,its just like having a car w/o the keys(SSHE), if u dont read SSHE.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

Looks goot to me.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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alexost, yeah i heard is book on probabilities is good,but trust me:),after u read is second book,u seriously need to read SSHE,its just like having a car w/o the keys(SSHE), if u dont read SSHE.

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OK, I'm getting SSHE next, I need a book like that before another probability book anyway.

Thanks for the recommendation

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

btw alexost,u can have it freely on pokerstars with the fpp.....used them wisely:)...

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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So where would you suggest a beginner look for softer games? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I found the games at Party and Paradise very soft. Now that I want the five 2+2 books I was considering to play at Everest. Nevertheless, Stars is my home (I'm grinding 0.10/0.20, because I'm a nit with the money). It's best to learn when your opponents have at least a clue how to play.

Oh, and get SSHE. It's the best book for your current stage, and it's not even close. ITH might be a good start, SSHE tells you how to crush these stakes.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have read about discounting outs, and am working on incorporating this into my strategy. One thing I'm confused about is whether discounting outs is done in conjunction with- or separate from simply trying to put a player on a hand or range of hands. I suppose you do both at the same time, but separately, in attempt to figure out the best strategy.

Maybe it can be said that outs are used to adjust probabilities when figuring out pot odds to call, etc., and putting people on hands is a separate part of poker strategy, to help decide the best possible move.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you count outs without putting your opponent on a hand? In other words, if you don't know what you think your opponent is playing, how do you know what you're trying to beat?

Discounting your outs is part of it, too, except you do that for fear of what your opponent MIGHT have, e.g. your AKo loses 2 outs on a two-suited board when you're not holding the suit because hitting the A or K of that suit makes a flush possible. Discounting outs is a hard thing to learn to do well.

Edit: and for Shania's sake, please stop pushing SSH on nOObs so hard. That's a straight road to Spewville. ITH or even WLLH will serve them much better in the current climate.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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Edit: and for Shania's sake, please stop pushing SSH on nOObs so hard. That's a straight road to Spewville. ITH or even WLLH will serve them much better in the current climate.


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ITH is an excellent book, better than SSHE to get the fundamentals from. However, the text and the examples are tailored more to a bit higher limits, where your opponents actually HAVE A CLUE what the heck they are doing. Loose passive games = SSHE. If OP is planning to start at .50/1, then ITH. And yeah ... disregard the starting hand chart.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

I have heard twice, from two different people on these forums (You, boz, and someone else) that SSHE does not apply to current on-line games. What gives?

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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I have heard twice, from two different people on these forums (You, boz, and someone else) that SSHE does not apply to current on-line games. What gives?

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I suggest first reading Lee Jones WLLH(I started with this one, reading twice). Play as tightly as it suggests. Then after reading it, understanding it and being able to really play that tight.. then read SSHE(after reading this, my games really started going well).

And people saying it wont apply, I don't know about that. They probably refer to people who read and think that laa playing is the way, without being able to really handle post flop(me?)... enging to giving money away waaay too much. For me though it helped amazingly. Not because of suggesting playing more, but with other concepts as well.

Cheers,
Ouzo

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

nh

Easy call after you are raised on the flop and its not close.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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I have heard twice, from two different people on these forums (You, boz, and someone else) that SSHE does not apply to current on-line games. What gives?

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Read it again.........I don't think that's what he said.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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I have heard twice, from two different people on these forums (You, boz, and someone else) that SSHE does not apply to current on-line games. What gives?

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Read it again.........I don't think that's what he said.

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True, that's not what I said. That's what Babar says.

The problem is, the "default" player, especially at micro-limits, has changed, SSH still applies, but it is not the build-your-bankroll cookbook it used to be. Players are trickier (or at least more aware) than they were during the boom. The play described in SSH will still enhance your winrate, if applied correctly, but if applied incorrectly will put you on the freeway to busto. You're much better served with a more conservative approach to the game until you have the experience to know when to make the plays described in SSH.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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Edit: and for Shania's sake, please stop pushing SSH on nOObs so hard. That's a straight road to Spewville. ITH or even WLLH will serve them much better in the current climate.


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ITH is an excellent book, better than SSHE to get the fundamentals from. However, the text and the examples are tailored more to a bit higher limits, where your opponents actually HAVE A CLUE what the heck they are doing. Loose passive games = SSHE. If OP is planning to start at .50/1, then ITH. And yeah ... disregard the starting hand chart.

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I studied the starting chart advice in conjunction with other authors starting hand advice and developed a straightforward list of hands to play from different positions. But I don't use it too much directly, I may refer to it after I make a play to see if my play agreed with ITH.

The basic premise for starting hands being that with better position, the more starting hands you can choose to play pre-flop, because you should have better information on what type of hands others MAY have, and how many other players will see the flop.

Obviously, after getting reads on opponents, you can also adjust your starting hands to that particular game. Loose, passive, etc.

Any other thoughts on starting hands?

So you recommend WLLH?

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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Any other thoughts on starting hands?


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King Yao divides not only according to your position but also four different cases:

1. No one has yet called
2. There are limpers but no raise
3. There is a raise but no other callers
4. There is a raise and at least two other callers

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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Any other thoughts on starting hands?


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King Yao divides not only according to your position but also four different cases:

1. No one has yet called
2. There are limpers but no raise
3. There is a raise but no other callers
4. There is a raise and at least two other callers

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These are definitely criteria I will use more of as I get more more and comfortable with each situation. Good stuff.

How do you like King Yaos' book?

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

please alexost.....skip WLLH since u already have ITH...

i think this is how i see it,if u grasp and play accordingly to the book:

WLLH : good book to be sure to break even

SSHE : good book to be sure to make money(not necessarily a lot but more then 0....)

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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please alexost.....skip WLLH since u already have ITH...

i think this is how i see it,if u grasp and play accordingly to the book:

WLLH : good book to be sure to break even

SSHE : good book to be sure to make money(not necessarily a lot but more then 0....)

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE is the next book I'm getting per your advice. I haven't changed my mind! Thanks for the replies MC.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

There are fundamentals like pot odds and hand evaluation that SSHE teaches you that advanced books assume you know. In fact a lot of HEPFAP situations use terms like "you'll have to fold". Why would you have to fold? I don't "have" to do anything! The authors are assuming you have a solid grasp of hand analysis, pot odds and other key concepts. The PF hand analysis is still true, even if the situations they describe are less common online than they used to be.

However, since the brick and mortar casinos are still full of bad players, SSHE is still good there!

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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nh sir. Looks fine to me.

Ideal flop (and # of opponents) for a c-bet. JJack is right, don't count all 6 outs, because your A or K could give villain two pair, i.e. danger of being reverse dominated.

It's gutsy to start at Stars' 0.50/1.00, not the softest games there, AFAIK.

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Thanks for the reply Guitierez. So where would you suggest a beginner look for softer games? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Like RemyXO said, $0.25/$0.50 is better to start out at. From this post you have some fundamentals to improve on so that would be a more forgiving level to work on that stuff.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

And look at the time you are playing. Look for the times when most people are in. Especially during weekdays in the middle of the night the games are tougher. I hardly break even during weekdays but usually gain in the evenings.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

Reader beware Alex. If you take in too much information at once, you will horribly misapply much of the advice these books give.

Basically, don't try to do everything at once.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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I have heard twice, from two different people on these forums (You, boz, and someone else) that SSHE does not apply to current on-line games. What gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read it again.........I don't think that's what he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, that's not what I said. That's what Babar says.

The problem is, the "default" player, especially at micro-limits, has changed, SSH still applies, but it is not the build-your-bankroll cookbook it used to be. Players are trickier (or at least more aware) than they were during the boom. The play described in SSH will still enhance your winrate, if applied correctly, but if applied incorrectly will put you on the freeway to busto. You're much better served with a more conservative approach to the game until you have the experience to know when to make the plays described in SSH.

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I defintely agree w/ Boz here in these tougher game times. The conservative approach is best for quite a while for you if you want to win long term.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

Thanks everyone for the replies and advice.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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It's gutsy to start at Stars' 0.50/1.00, not the softest games there, AFAIK.

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LOL, seriously?

If you've read small-stakes hold'em and visit/read 2+2 and can't beat .5/1 then you are essentially 1 of 2 things:

1. The worst downswing ever.

or

2. Brain dead

Btw, hand is played fine.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

lol sykes, when's the last time you played stars .5/1?

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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lol sykes, when's the last time you played stars .5/1?

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um, yesterday?

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

okay i thought you were some random guy. those games are nitty/full of tags/somewhat hard from what i understand?

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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okay i thought you were some random guy. those games are nitty/full of tags/somewhat hard from what i understand?

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Sometimes they are nitty. But the money doesnt come from preflop anymore, it comes from postflop, and these ppl play so bad, it's like their brain is switched off.

Re: Beginner plays AK
 

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okay i thought you were some random guy. those games are nitty/full of tags/somewhat hard from what i understand?

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That's how I'm playing right now. I play MOSTLY premium hands, and those that aren't premium, I don't pay much, (and sometimes nothing), to see the flop. If the flop completely misses my less than premium hands, I don't play them any further. As far as nitty, you mean they are pretty selective about putting money into the pot? So, it's difficult to play against selective, aggressive players? I 'm curious what types of players you guys feel are difficult to play against... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]