live 67s Button
 

Live 4/8 game that that has been going from LP to tight.

UTG(loose pf reasonable post)limps, MP(bad post flop)limps, MP1(good 2+2er)limps, HJ(weak older guy)limps, CO(predictable guy with the "I place a chip on my cards when I like them" tell does just this and limps, Hero is BTN with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and limps, SB completes, BB(tight lady) raps.

(7 SBs) Flop of 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] SB checks, BB Checks, UTG Checks, MP Checks, MP1 Checks, HJ Checks, CO bets, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, MP1 folds, HJ folds.

(6 BBs) Turn is the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Checked to CO who bets, Hero raises, all fold to CO who thinks for a moment then folds and says "nice hand". Hero takes down pot.

A few things: 67s is near the bottom of my PF range here. With my gut draw I may not have been getting the 10.5:1 odds to draw but it was close(adding ? for the BDFS) and I felt that a few others were coming along for the ride so I called. On the turn I make the current nuts but with the 2 flush out I thought it better to raise it here for protection.

Anyone fold this flop? Easy peel right?

Re: live 67s Button
 

first with all these limpers on the button i think you have an easy pf raise, both for value and based on your position.

as played, i consider flat calling the turn bet. given that no one showed great strength on the flop, your turn raise has little value as all the flop 'checkers" arent calling, and a weak tight CO wont call either. the risk is that you are letting in straight draws for cheap for a chop, but in this situation i believe going for overcalls has a higher EV.

all, it is likely that if you raised this PF, you probably would have tied others into this pot and gotten more action on your straight.

oh...and your flop call is fine in a passive game where you dont have to fear a CR.

EDIT: i missed the flush draw. the turn raise now makes more sense.

Re: live 67s Button
 

Doing a flop smoothie had occured to me. I guess the 2 flush out there made me just pop it right there instead.

BTW, how many outs do we give this BDFD?

Re: live 67s Button
 

Thinking about folding the flop is the right question, but: 1) Give yourself 2 extra outs for the BDFD. 2) No one has shown signs of strength, limiting the chance of a good flush draw being out against you. (There are more than enough opponents that an A or K high flush draw should raise for equity.) 3) Implied odds are a +. If you do hit, 67 should have gotten better action than it did.

Crappy board and fold by CO tells me that you were predictable, too. Everyone put you on a hand that was big enough that they didn't even want to try to chase down your turn raise. But you did need to protect against even a weak flush draw so raising the turn was right.

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doing a flop smoothie had occured to me. I guess the 2 flush out there made me just pop it right there instead.

BTW, how many outs do we give this BDFD?

[/ QUOTE ]

whoops, sorry, missed the FD....thats pretty important. now i like turn raise a lot more. if the flop was rainbow i'd def go for overcalls.

the BDFD is worth 1.5 outs.

Re: live 67s Button
 

Kit,
I'm interested in your suggestion to raise PF with low-middling suited connectors. I can see doing it on occasion for metagame reasons (convincing the fish that you're a maniac), but it would not seem intuitively to be EV+ even on the button with 5 limpers. The OP does not comment on particularly passivity of the table. Do you have some quantitative argument for raising it up here? I certainly would raise JTs or even T9s in this situation, but often enough these will win with top pair, but 76s will rarely win with top pair so you will need to flush or straight to play this. More thoughts on this?

Re: live 67s Button
 

Pop this one time from the button PF.

Raising the turn maybe right but I think I could be convinced to call and see what happens. With three players in the hand behind us we have a shot at a prety good sized pot here. Guess it depends on if youre good enough to recognize a made flush on the river and are ok folding your straight.

Re: live 67s Button
 

Also,I felt that the CO liked his hand by his chip on card tell and thought he would be calling my raise here. I think he did have a hand but he was a bit weak and got a bit scared of my play. Oh well

Tell-This is the 2nd time that I and a fellow 2+2er have noticed this on the last 3 sessions by a player. This is a LLHE tell that if some of you haven't picked up on you should. It is pretty easy to spot and pretty reliable. One session back some old guy would do this. One hand he chipped his cards right after looking at them (he only did this when he liked his hand)and raised PF, he got 3 bet by some guy who didn't notice this older guy, and they went to the flop. The 3 bettor bet into him and the old guy raised. Why this guy kept on with the hand against the Ole' chipper I'll never know. The old chipperguy flopped a set.

Now obv some players always chip their cards on every hand but keep your eyes open for some who only do it on PF hands they raise or like.

Frond's Live SSHE tip o' the day

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kit,
I'm interested in your suggestion to raise PF with low-middling suited connectors. I can see doing it on occasion for metagame reasons (convincing the fish that you're a maniac), but it would not seem intuitively to be EV+ even on the button with 5 limpers. The OP does not comment on particularly passivity of the table. Do you have some quantitative argument for raising it up here? I certainly would raise JTs or even T9s in this situation, but often enough these will win with top pair, but 76s will rarely win with top pair so you will need to flush or straight to play this. More thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Suited connectors are equity hogs in big, multi-way pots. Even down as low as 76s you're almost certainly going to have a preflop equity advantage against a full field of limpers, so raising is for value. It also helps that we hold the Button (position) and that presumably we can outplay the field after the flop. Plus of course the preflop raise disguises our hand should we end up with the straight or trips.

Re: live 67s Button
 

I guess I have to draw the line somewhere. Lately, with a hand like this in a multi way pot like this I have been raising PF with 78s and up. It doesn't have to be set in stone though like lots of poker decisions. The argument can be made "well if you are going to to raise 78s then why not 67s?" Well then what about 56s, 45s etc etc. 78s is just where I have my line currently.

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
The argument can be made "well if you are going to to raise 78s then why not 67s?" Well then what about 56s, 45s etc etc. 78s is just where I have my line currently.

[/ QUOTE ]

With five limpers to you already, 54s isn't much different than 87s.

-McGee

Re: live 67s Button
 

Then why not 34s or 23s

Re: live 67s Button
 

Gotta go now, but I think the post flop decisions here in this hand may be more crucial than pre flop.

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then why not 34s or 23s

[/ QUOTE ]

They make fewer straights.

-McGee

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
With my gut draw I may not have been getting the 10.5:1 odds to draw

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd put your gut draw at about 14-1 since one of your outs could easily be tainted. B-door draw is weak so I'd put that as a partial out. The problem is the bettors position as you won't really be able to maximize if you hit. You'll really only be able to put a protection raise in which cuts your implied odds.

Thin peel. Probably about neutral. But in hindsight, how much were you really expecting to get on this draw implied-wise?

b

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
first with all these limpers on the button i think you have an easy pf raise, both for value and based on your position.


[/ QUOTE ]

No high card value makes this an easy limp. What hands wouldn't you raise here? Unless you really think a pair of 7s or 6s, with a crap kick at that, might hold up. This hand is good to see the flop cheaply.

b

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then why not 34s or 23s

[/ QUOTE ]
Increased straight potential. 32s can make only two straights with both cards. Anything 54s and above can make four. Doesn't seem like a big difference, but you're playing these hands for their big-hand, big-pot potential, so it's significant.

[ QUOTE ]
Gotta go now, but I think the post flop decisions here in this hand may be more crucial than pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Normally I'd agree, but in this case I think OP might have taken down an enormous pot if he'd raised PF here.

(1) He's no longer representing small cards, so he's not as likely to scare everyone out when the straight hits on the turn.
(2) He ties people to the (now larger) pot on the turn - with an extra $24 in there his raise is much more likely to get a caller, which then is more likely to prompt an overcall, etc., etc. Once they've called the turn at least one is gonna call the river, and if your hand is still best (which is very likely), all of a sudden you're now scooping not a 6 BB pot but a 12-13 BB pot.

As it stands, IMO you played it right - sucks that everyone abandoned ship, but you'd be kicking yourself if you let two small diamonds in cheap to beat you.

Mook

Re: live 67s Button
 

eight limpers to me, i'm on the button, i raise any two cards for value because i have position right? ugh cmon with this again guys

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
eight limpers to me, i'm on the button, i raise any two cards for value because i have position right? ugh cmon with this again guys

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

b

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
eight limpers to me, i'm on the button, i raise any two cards for value because i have position right? ugh cmon with this again guys

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd ask to be moved to a 10-seat table. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
eight limpers to me, i'm on the button, i raise any two cards for value because i have position right? ugh cmon with this again guys

[/ QUOTE ]
Raising with 76s here is for value, I swear it! I humbly plead for leniency before the Archbishop. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Apropos of nothing, the last live 4/8 game I played I was on the button about an hour in, everyone limps to me and I popped it with 93s. Flop came 7-6-3, turn 8, river 5. That 93s won me about $100 that hand and about $250 more over the course of that night - it was the first and last time I got out of line the whole session but it seemed like every time I made the nuts, I could lead out and someone would raise "Mr. Nine-Three" just on principle.

Raise 76s for value, but also 'cause image is fun. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Mook

Re: live 67s Button
 

Mook, the problem with stuff like this is that most of the time, you are going to have to throw away your 93s before showdown, and it's not gonna do a damn thing for your image. Heck, even if you show down the hand but don't win the pot, it won't do much. Live 4/8 players aren't going to remember other players' losing hands. They called you "Mr. Nine Three" because you raised with it and won, not because you raised with it.

-McGee

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first with all these limpers on the button i think you have an easy pf raise, both for value and based on your position.


[/ QUOTE ]

No high card value makes this an easy limp. What hands wouldn't you raise here? Unless you really think a pair of 7s or 6s, with a crap kick at that, might hold up. This hand is good to see the flop cheaply.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

any hand where you have an equity edge and position on a passive table should be raised preflop.

i dont raise K2s b/c it lacks that edge. 23s and 34s lack that edge b/c they make fewer straights than 76s and more 2nd best straights.

the other advantage with raising this hand preflop is that it ties other people into the pot. you dont want people folding when you hit the nuts on the turn or flop a big draw.

finally by raising preflop in position in a passive game, everyone almost religiously checks to the raiser. if you flop something lame (like a backdraw draw) you can check the flop, and the resulting free turn card can give you a very nice draw.

i would not advocate this PF raise, fwiw, w/o several limpers in, or in a very tough aggressive game.

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]

Raising with 76s here is for value, I swear it! I humbly plead for leniency before the Archbishop. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Apropos of nothing, the last live 4/8 game I played I was on the button about an hour in, everyone limps to me and I popped it with 93s. Flop came 7-6-3, turn 8, river 5. That 93s won me about $100 that hand and about $250 more over the course of that night - it was the first and last time I got out of line the whole session but it seemed like every time I made the nuts, I could lead out and someone would raise "Mr. Nine-Three" just on principle.

Raise 76s for value, but also 'cause image is fun. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Mook

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but this is pretty results-oriented.

76s is a value raise that doubles as a image-enhancer. 93s is a spew.

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
first with all these limpers on the button i think you have an easy pf raise, both for value and based on your position.


[/ QUOTE ]
What hands wouldn't you raise here?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo, ATo, KJo - mediocre hands with only high card value.

suited king-rag.

other than that, i'm raising. the button is the best position in poker and you should be putting money in when you have it.

Re: live 67s Button
 

I would almost never raise this hand preflop even after everyone limped. Maybe someone can explain this?

I thought you played this hand really well though. I believe calling the flop is definitely correct and just calling the turn after we get there would be a mistake. We definitely need to raise to protect our hand against flushes and extract value from other hands.

BTW I have no idea what the guy on your right had. I think that is also interesting.

Re: live 67s Button
 

Because if you make a hand with 67s its going to be one that is going to be big enough to take down a multiplayer pot and you have the button. If you pop it and wiff on the flop, oh well, all you've lost is one BB. But if you catch the flop you now have something to chase after. So do other players, so when you catch your nut straight on the turn they're less likely to just forfet the pot as quickly. Because you're the button, and most players dont donk into a preflop raise you may even be able to get a free card too, and your hand will be well disguised when you catch something. The key is dont do anything stupid like think you pair of 7's is going to be good. When you wiff you've lost 1 SB, when you hit you may need a few hands to stack the chips.

"BTW I have no idea what the guy on your right had. I think that is also interesting. "

I was confused by this too. My guess is a 5 and he was praying no one had the J, or a bad J.

Re: live 67s Button
 

This hand has no equity advantage unless they are all playing random hands and even then it would be minuscule.

Small suited connectors are implied odds hands and need all the implied odds they can get. If you are doubling the bet pf you have just doubled the implied odds that you need for the hand to be profitable.

You have to realize that when you do hit you will make a lot of second best hands. A hand like JTs is a raise in a game like this, not 76s.

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
no offense but this is pretty results-oriented.

76s is a value raise that doubles as a image-enhancer. 93s is a spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is. That's why I prefaced it "apropos of nothing". [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand has no equity advantage unless they are all playing random hands and even then it would be minuscule.

Small suited connectors are implied odds hands and need all the implied odds they can get. If you are doubling the bet pf you have just doubled the implied odds that you need for the hand to be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, it has no equity edge at all in this spot.

Even so, most 2+2'ers are 25/15-type players in 50/5-type games. Believe it or not, at live games in the 6/12 - 10/20 ranges, some of your opponents will actually notice this. If all you raise on a regular basis are big pairs and blackjack hands, sure, you'll get called down by idiots, but you won't ever get extra action on big bet streets like the person who showed down 7-high the last two times he raised will.

My point is, if you want to get action on your big hands, why not do it with a hand where raising is +EV to begin with? You're literally getting paid to enhance a loose, wild image. I call that a pretty good deal.

Mook

Re: live 67s Button
 

Consider raising preflop.

Re: live 67s Button
 

Some are for the PF raise some are against it. Joe's post was is concise and spot on. I didn't think about raising cause I usually don't with this hand. Doesn't mean I won't now though.

PokerJans was at the table with me so that is what he meant by he didn't know what the guy on my right had in the hand.

Oh no, am I starting to get to the level of what do I think my opponent has and onward to what do I think my opponent thinks that I have to..........????

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh no, am I starting to get to the level of what do I think my opponent has and onward to what do I think my opponent thinks that I have to..........????

[/ QUOTE ]

When you get to the level where you're asking yourself what your opponenent thinks you think of his shirt, it's time to take a step back.

Re: live 67s Button
 

I definitely disagree with all the people saying that a pf raise is possibly +ev. It's freaking 4/8 game, people! The primary reasons for raising (metagame, hand disguising) are pretty much nullified by the general sucktitude of all the people playing. If this were 15/30, 20/40, or even 10/20 I might agree. 4/8 players are by and large not sophisticated enough to employ hand reading in this or later hands.

I also think that raising pf for value is misguided. I don't have pokerstove, but good god, 67s is a tremendous implied odds hand. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it does in fact have a pf equity edge, it would be so miniscule that this would be a clear-cut situation of forgoing a (very) slightly +ev play now to increase postflop ev.

As for the main question, I would give serious consideration to folding the flop. A checkraise behind us would be awful, and as it stands right now our implied odds make calling or folding approximately break-even if we were closing the action. I think that folding the flop is probably correct, although I could be talked into a raise if we were extremely likely to buy a free card with it.

Re: live 67s Button
 

Just some food for thought...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=2855593
pokenum -h 6c 7c - 8c 9s - qd jd - ks 3h - js 8d - ac 2s
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7c 6c 129022 19.61 527908 80.23 1078 0.16 0.196
9s 8c 67077 10.19 584502 88.83 6429 0.98 0.106
Qd Jd 162071 24.63 486690 73.96 9247 1.41 0.253
Ks 3h 123125 18.71 533805 81.12 1078 0.16 0.187
Js 8d 38802 5.90 604608 91.88 14598 2.22 0.070
2s Ac 123313 18.74 533617 81.10 1078 0.16 0.188

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
The primary reasons for raising (metagame, hand disguising) are pretty much nullified by the general sucktitude of all the people playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are not the primary reasons for raising, nor should they ever be. Possibly excluding HU matches.

[ QUOTE ]
I also think that raising pf for value is misguided. I don't have pokerstove, but good god, 67s is a tremendous implied odds hand. Even assuming for the sake of argument that it does in fact have a pf equity edge, it would be so miniscule that this would be a clear-cut situation of forgoing a (very) slightly +ev play now to increase postflop ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every penny counts. And in this case, bloating the pot preflop is good for your hand, because you're either going to hit a monster or get out of there...if you hit the monster, you want a bigger pot that will tempt your opponents to stay in. Either way, trying to Stove 76s against 8-9 random hands would take my PC forever, but rest assured that your equity advantage is more than miniscule.

Re: live 67s Button
 

Say I did raise PF in this hand after all the limpers. Play out the hand now............. It is checked to me (the PF raiser)on the flop, I take the free one obv if this happens. Cause if I bet the flop everyone would be getting getting around 14:1 or better depending on their positions. Just speculation

Re: live 67s Button
 

In HEPFAP on pg 33, the authors write (paraphrasing) that raising 87s in late position is probably a good play, but if you are against opponents that play too many hands and go too far with them, there is less value in raising so you should usually just call because you do not need to tie them to the pot.

The authors also state that part of the reason for raising is to get the button but we already have that.

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
In HEPFAP on pg 33, the authors write (paraphrasing) that raising 87s in late position is probably a good play, but if you are against opponents that play too many hands and go too far with them, there is less value in raising so you should usually just call because you do not need to tie them to the pot.

The authors also state that part of the reason for raising is to get the button but we already have that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont understand this. if you hit just a pair of 8's or 7's you arent going to win anyway. it doesnt matter if you raise PF or not. you want to tie people into the pot for when you hit a monster hand.

if anything, this argument better applies to a hand like AJo, for obvious reasons.

Re: live 67s Button
 

He is saying that it is unnecessary to raise in order to tie people to the pot when they are probably not folding post-flop anyway.

Re: live 67s Button
 

[ QUOTE ]
if anything, this argument better applies to a hand like AJo, for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously not.