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- Small Stakes Limit (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19)

- - Flop check (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=449362)

I wanted to get your opinions on this flop check.

Pretty meh online game.

Don't know much about MP1. He seems aggressive enough, seemed normal for typical online 3/6 guy--though I don't know what to make of the open limp.

MP2 likes to overlimp alot. He peels flops quite a bit, plays the turn more aggressively than flops, and goes to showdown a lot.

MP2 knows I am pretty aggressive preflop, postflop, but I don't showdown tons, and probably fold too much postflop.

3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

I bet here 99.9% of the time, for all the obvious reasons (best hand, no free cards, position, yada yada yada). I am pretty sure that the responses will mostly reflect that sentiment.

However, is there any argument for checking in this situation? I am getting called on that flop a ton, and getting c/r a decent amount. Checking does not mean giving up, as I can still call/raise/bet the turn depend on turn card and action. I also know my check will look out of place, as any hand is betting there nearly 100% of the time.

So, any takers?

Bet simply for value.

i bet this flop 100% of the time.

1) value
2) initiative
3) dont give away free cards to random hands that pair up on the turn
4) people pay me off more when i actually have a hand

make it 4-5 handed and then you have a discussion.

i agree with the above points, and add one more: checking behind here basically turns your hand face up and allows your opponents to play better against you on the turn and river.

Betting will likely confirm that you are now ahead. Checking behind, on the other hand, tells you nothing about what your opponents hold.

u kno wut u shoulda done

First of all, you don't have to cb all the time. 2nd, there are a number of flops/situations where I won't bet the flop after raising preflop.

This isn't one of them.

I'd check Qh Jh here.

How are you betting for value with ace high against 2 opponents. I'd still cbett here as it's a flop unlikely to have hit the opponents (I'd prefer one). The danger is that a call was from a mid pair. If they call your cbet you have outs as long as they didn't make a set.At least then you know where you stand.

Your first statement contradicts itself completely.

A hand like 55-66 will probably fastplay this a little more.

That doesn't change the fact that the SB has made a big bet, and the BB has called. KK is possibly ahead but by no means certain. I'd like to see a safe turn before making any big moves. You have position, so use it.

[ QUOTE ]
, and add one more: checking behind here basically turns your hand face up and allows your opponents to play better against you on the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree and disagree at the same time. If a typical online 3/6 decent TAG type checks behind on that flop given the preflop action, I go "wtf????!!" It doesn't make a ton of sense b/c pretty much any hand that raised preflop is betting this flop. So I am not sure a check necessarily means big overcards unimproved...but I may be wrong.

--Rico

[ QUOTE ]
KK is possibly ahead but by no means certain.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you only think KK is "possibly" ahead on this flop that you got a serious case of weak tight disease and need professional help.

i would bet the flop, hope it gets HU, check the turn UI and call a river bet most of the time.

theory-wise it can give your opponents too much info about your hand, while having the opposite effect upon you. this is of course assuming you don't do this with made hands as well. if you check behind in those spots as well there's more merit, but then you are often giving up too much value to allow for this on a regular occasion.

mainly though, i don't like it because we can often get to the river HU for one sb in a reasonable sized pot.

Like James said, bet the flop and you can often check behind UI on the turn.

Also, if you check it makes the turn much more difficult to play correctly since you have basically invited them to take shots at you.

With only 2 opponents and that rag flop I'd bet for being likely to have the best hand. It seems unlikely you'd get c/r'd there and if you do you can be pretty sure they have an 8, a set, or a spade flush draw.

You must bet this flop. Because 3-handed, you must bet this flop with an overpair; not betting here is pretty much turning your hand over & letting both opponents know that you're not interested unless the turn card hits you.

Checking through and then raising a blank turn card is even worse, as any player with half a brain is going to call BS on that move. The only way I could maybe see that line being worthwhile is if you were fairly certain that MP1 would check again on the turn and that MP2 would bet with any two cards.

Personally, I bet the flop & put some pressure on MP1 to fold his mid pocket pair/suited broadway. I know that MP2 is calling my flop bet, and that's cool. If I get the desired result (MP1 folds, MP2 calls), I can check through the turn UI & call a river bet depending on the final board.