KK: How\'s this look?
 

200nl or 400nl 6 max

First hand at table, no read on either villain.

Hero is in BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG limps, fold, CO raises to 5BB, Button folds, SB folds, Hero pushes....

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

I think it's a waste of a premium hand

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

Only if you have a strong feeling that an ace will flop.

Seriously, even though it's your first hand, I still think it has to be more profitable to reraise and play it from there. To be fair, I've never tried this so I don't know how often worse hands call, but I wouldn't think it would happen hardly ever. If anyone knows from experience that this works, I'd love to hear it.

JKratzer

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

Everyone here is saying they call this with JJ. I think most Party players hem and haw for a while but will call with QQ, and you'll get a decent success with JJ. Also if AK ever calls you, its also huge +EV to counterbalance the few he has AA.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone here is saying they call this with JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

whhaaaaa..??

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Everyone here is saying they call this with JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

whhaaaaa..??

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=7#Post4817855

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

how deep is CO in the example? what about UTG?

it might be more logical to me to pull this move if villians, or atleast one villian, was <100 BB's or something. if they're deeper, i dunno, seems illogical but you're right, you might get crying calls from weaker pairs.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

I'm just wondering, because seriously I think this is a case in which everyone is afraid to take a gamble on a hand, that from the other point of view you would often fall for.

To be honest, I'm rarely getting called with anything but AK, TT, JJ, QQ, AA, then some guys with all the pairs and some with AQ. Against that range, we lose TT, AQ and maaaybe JJ against which we make a marginal postflop gain (and sometimes lose our stack). We, I think, still get QQ and AK to get come along for the ride, and this is a pretty nice EV upgrade.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just wondering, because seriously I think this is a case in which everyone is afraid to take a gamble on a hand, that from the other point of view you would often fall for.

To be honest, I'm rarely getting called with anything but AK, TT, JJ, QQ, AA, then some guys with all the pairs and some with AQ. Against that range, we lose TT, AQ and maaaybe JJ against which we make a marginal postflop gain (and sometimes lose our stack). We, I think, still get QQ and AK to get come along for the ride, and this is a pretty nice EV upgrade.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it depends entirely on whether he can lay down AK in this spot. If he can't, it's definitely a good move (anyone not laying down AK isn't laying down JJ).

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]

To me it depends entirely on whether he can lay down AK in this spot

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much what I'm wondering. I think people call this a lot.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

To me it depends entirely on whether he can lay down AK in this spot

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty much what I'm wondering. I think people call this a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't. i don't think AK is going to call here enough of the time to make this a profitable play. i make this play occasionally at 3-6 and it never works...the only hand that ever calls me here is AA.

this play might work more at 200nl than 400nl, because i think the calling range against you is going to be wider. even at 200nl i don't think ak is a reasonable expectation to call you, though.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

anything that involves 2 bet pushing pf with full stacks and no reads = bad IMO.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

it's ironic that during this thread button 3-bet an EP raiser ai with ak and got called by ak. 2-4NL 6max full tilt. 80bb stacks.

you're idea is now more logical, xorbie.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it's ironic that during this thread button 3-bet an EP raiser ai with ak and got called by ak. 2-4NL 6max full tilt. 80bb stacks.

you're idea is now more logical, xorbie.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be amazed if reads weren't involved.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's ironic that during this thread button 3-bet an EP raiser ai with ak and got called by ak. 2-4NL 6max full tilt. 80bb stacks.

you're idea is now more logical, xorbie.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be amazed if reads weren't involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd be amazed if they were given the texture of this table.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

full stack's and ak, i'll think a damn long time then decide based on my mood.
70 bb's and under i'm calling
45 bb's and under-auto call with jj and up, ak

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

Honestly, sure why not. It's just one hand and it's worth a shot. If he folds, so what. They will remember your huge push and probably pin you down as a moron. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Plus, this works fantastic if you pick up QQ-AA the very next hand and he raises again. :-o

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

FWIW, I just called off 50BBs when new player (first hand) pushed over my open with AQs.

He had QT.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

no one lays down AK here. Hell, I've seen this get called with KQ.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($1005.52)
BB ($549.80)
UTG :#A500AF(Lucky Jackass)/ ($376)
MP ($1106.09)
TWP ($398)
Button ($30)

Preflop: TWP is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG :#A500AF(Lucky Jackass)/ raises to $8</font>, MP calls $8, TWP calls $398 (All-In), <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG :#A500AF(Lucky Jackass)/ calls $368 (All-In), MP folds.

Flop: ($788) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: ($788) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($788) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $788

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Lucky Jackass has Qs Ks (straight, king high).
TWP has Jd Jc (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Lucky Jackass wins $760. TWP wins $22. </font>

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

TWP, too bad you always lose these hands, you could be a winning player!

Calling ranges REALLY vary here from player to player. Some fold QQ/AK, some call with 88 or something as dumb as KQ apparently (thats REALLY extreme, obviously). I don't know what the most likely average calling range would be on Party. When I get called by TT/JJ on pushes, its generally when they donk-reraise me and get married to their hand when I jam, fully expecting me to have AK. I don't jam in this kind of spot very often, but I 3-bet jam a lot in spots that many people on here would prefer to "let the weaker pairs tag along".

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
no one lays down AK here. Hell, I've seen this get called with KQ.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($1005.52)
BB ($549.80)
UTG :#A500AF(Lucky Jackass)/ ($376)
MP ($1106.09)
TWP ($398)
Button ($30)

Preflop: TWP is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG :#A500AF(Lucky Jackass)/ raises to $8</font>, MP calls $8, TWP calls $398 (All-In), <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG :#A500AF(Lucky Jackass)/ calls $368 (All-In), MP folds.

Flop: ($788) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: ($788) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($788) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $788

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Lucky Jackass has Qs Ks (straight, king high).
TWP has Jd Jc (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Lucky Jackass wins $760. TWP wins $22. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

The risk vs. reward of that play is horrendous. That is really very different from the KK hypothetical.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

Maybe you didn't notice that my JJJ was better than KK but that both still lose to KQJT9?

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

Good.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone here is saying they call this with JJ. I think most Party players hem and haw for a while but will call with QQ, and you'll get a decent success with JJ. Also if AK ever calls you, its also huge +EV to counterbalance the few he has AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

The times your opponent has AK, QQ, JJ, TT and calls are going to make you plenty long term. Factor in the times the unknown raiser is a donk that puts in his stack with AJ or 88 and it's not close that this is a good play IMHO.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

twp,

ha ha owned

regards,
yvesaint

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

Looks good, at least if its on Stars, can be the rebuy-trick..

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

everyone,

i think youre losing ton of value here

against a lot of players, you will get it all in on undercard flop v. 99+

against a lot of players, you will get it all in v. TPTK

its a lot easier to flop draws when you arent folding everything but high pockets and AsKs preflop

i mean, i think in the long run re raising is much more +EV. if you had a read on the guy that this raise was only AA-JJ, AK/AQ, sure, this might be good, but even then, i think youre losing value

how many times can i use the word value in my post,
yvaluesaint

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

I like this more at the 1/2 NL than I do at the 2/4 NL. Also, stack sizes are all but too relevant.

A'

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

pushing preflop with JJ with a raise and a call before you? Is this standard or did you just have a great read? Besides this extreme example, what hands are really calling here?

I dont even call this with QQ (unless 50BB or less), but I guess I should start!

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
everyone,

i think youre losing ton of value here

against a lot of players, you will get it all in on undercard flop v. 99+

against a lot of players, you will get it all in v. TPTK

its a lot easier to flop draws when you arent folding everything but high pockets and AsKs preflop

i mean, i think in the long run re raising is much more +EV. if you had a read on the guy that this raise was only AA-JJ, AK/AQ, sure, this might be good, but even then, i think youre losing value

how many times can i use the word value in my post,
yvaluesaint

[/ QUOTE ]

first hand i sit down im raaarely getting it in vs tptk or anything like that. im taking it down pf almost all the time.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

TWP: Why not reraise and play the flop? You've got pos and are good postflop. In this case you most likely end up winning.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

Because they will call all in with KQs?

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

I like it, you prob win 5bb and everyone perks up, thinking, "maniac alert" maybe you get called by AJ or whatever, i like it.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

still strikes me that reraising and playing a flop is much more to your advantage than to his.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

Not if he will call all in preflop with KQs. Then playing a flop only gives him a chance to miss completely and get away.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because they will call all in with KQs?

[/ QUOTE ]
so you gained what, 4bb in EV from that play? fantastic.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

They will call all in with TT, too.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

playing for your stack preflop as a 53% fav. &gt; reraising and playing good postflop?

I don't see it, especially when you add in the times he doesn't have overcards and the times he folds preflop when he would have called a reraise with overs.

Re: KK: How\'s this look?
 

in general, i agree with you. this guy was very very special. i pulled this move maaaaybe three times in my life.