non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

Please don't respond to this thread if you want to talk about why central planning is bad. This isn't about that at all.

Anyway, here goes.

I go to 3 different martial arts schools. Judo charges $20 per month for three 2 hour lessons per week. Jeet Kune Do charges $40 per month for one 2 hour class per week. The Third I'll call Jun Fan, and it charges $120 per month for two 90 minute classes per week.

Judo is nonprofit. It's run as a club/sports organization. I think I would rank Judo as the best training that I currently engage in. The class is VERY VERY hard. I frequently get injured. I often get thrown hard or submitted on the ground. Most people would hate to be in this class unless they were in reasonable shape.

The advantages of the judo class are that everything you learn is extremely practical, and you learn it in a way that teaches you how to apply it in a violent encounter against a strong, and capable fighter.
We spare for about an hour total every class. The other hour is warmup/instruction in techniques. There;s no such thing as having a false sense of self-confidence in Judo. You spar every class, including your first day, and there's almost always someone much better than you.


The 2nd best class I go to is the Jeet Kune Do class. I might rank it first, except it only meets once a week, and we don't do as much sparring. We learn very few techniques in this class. Everything is refinement, and it's refinement through hard work. All of the drills we do are very alive. You will sometimes get hit in the drills, because they are done at a high speed, and the attitude in the class is that getting hit is the price you pay for screwing up and it's the only way to learn. We spare for about 15 minutes at the end of class.
Everything is allowed in the sparring. We wear boxing gloves, and shin guards, and groin protectors, and use mouthguards, and we don't go full power out of courtesy, but we still go full speed and you still get hurt.

The third best class is the Jun Fan class. We learn new, and somewhat complicated techniques almost every class. There is zero sparring for many students, even those who have been there for 18 months or more. The drills are done in a slow manner, and your partner is there to basically assist you in completing your technique, instead of acting as a resistant opponent.

What's happening in the case of this third school is that the seller is able to give the consumer something that appears to be what the consumer wants, and he is able to do this for a long period of time without the student having the ability to tell the difference. Students come to learn how to defend themselves effectively, but instead they end up learning fantasy roleplaying techniques.

Most markets in capitalism seem to function in a very different way than this, because:

1. The consumer can tell beforehand if the product sucks

and at the very least

2. After the initial transaction ("small buy") the consumer can decide to continue to make that purchase, based on whether it satisfied a need or not.

In the case of nonprofit martial arts schools, like my Judo school, they really don't care very much if you join or not, and they're not there to make you feel good about yourself. They are there to teach you how to compete effectively so that you can do well in tournaments, and so you can continue the tradition of the school and help to teach other students later on.

conclusion: sometimes the profit motive sucks.

Ok, sorry if you think I'm being captain obvious here, but I mainly made this post in he hopes that some of you would share some other examples of when non-profit organizations might outperform for-profit organizations.

One I was thinking about, but I'm not sure about, is the practice of psychology.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

"Ok, sorry if you think I'm being captain obvious here, but I mainly made this post in he hopes that some of you would share some other examples of when non-profit organizations might outperform for-profit organizations."

The church outperfroms the state.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]

"Ok, sorry if you think I'm being captain obvious here, but I mainly made this post in he hopes that some of you would share some other examples of when non-profit organizations might outperform for-profit organizations."

The church outperfroms the state.


[/ QUOTE ]


1. I have no idea what you even mean

2. The state isn't really a for-profit organization in a sense that is different than churches are, i.e., it's not like they are both incentivized to cut costs to increase profit for a shareholder or proprietor

3. I was thining something more along on the lines of "Studies show that nonprofit mental health centers show more patient improvement per treatment hour than psychologists" (made up quote) or whatever. Not comparing apples and oranges.

4. Stop trying to hijack my thread. The very first sentence said that this thread isn't about the state. GAWD.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

I've been to many for profit gyms structured the way your judo gym is structured. I currently do jujitzu at a forprofit place that has the exact same structure.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]

I've been to many for profit gyms structured the way your judo gym is structured. I currently do jujitzu at a forprofit place that has the exact same structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have brought this up in OP. There are definitely very good products and services that are produced for profit, however, if I do a search in los angeles for "brazilian jiu-jitsu" and a search for "Karate" I get 10x more results for karate. Guess which one is more effective, and more challenging?
Karate students are looking for the same thing that BJJ students are looking for, and they think they're getting it, but they aren't.

Standard dogma is that the only way for a business to succeed is to please their consumers. There are some markets where this seems to systemically not be the case. What % of karate students do you think would be pleased if they were in jail and their cellmate tried to rape them? My guess is maybe 10%. A BJJ student is going to break several of that rapist's bones, and sleep well with an intact bunghole like 90% of the time.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

The only industry I know where there is a plethora of products equally as good if not better than commercial alternatives is the software industry and its various form of free open-source movement. The really interesting aspect of this is that where there exists a free product alternative of equal or superior quality it hasn't destroyed the commercial alternatives viability.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
One I was thinking about, but I'm not sure about, is the practice of psychology

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont' know you make some pretty good points in your post.

If you wanted to talk apples and oranges I could offer this comparison.

20 dollars for Non profit Judo teaches you to defend yourself, self control, confidence, and would help you in a crisis by knowing you can defend yourself.

I dont' take Judo so I don't know how you would feel in a 3 on 1 or a 4 on 1 situation where you were being attacked.

In that situation I would rather give my money to a FOR profit company like Smith and Wesson. Having a .38 or an UZI makes me feel safer, have confidence, and let's me defend myself.

Now I feel safer with an UZI but I would not be getting the self control that Judo teaches so society might not feel safe with me having the UZI.

Realisticly speaking the Judo is better than the gun option. Because of all the side benefits 1) Exersize 2) Confidence 3) Social Interaction etc etc.

The gun option might be something you'll never need in your life and a waste of money but it is nice to have that one time you might really need it.

So to sum up if I lived in the country or a nice neighborhood I think the non profit Judo is the way to go and is much better than buying a gun.

If you live in a city with a high crime and violence rate then while the gun is the worst option overall it still might be the best choice.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

non-profit >>>>>>>> profit >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t; government

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]

Standard dogma is that the only way for a business to succeed is to please their consumers. There are some markets where this seems to systemically not be the case. What % of karate students do you think would be pleased if they were in jail and their cellmate tried to rape them? My guess is maybe 10% . A BJJ student is going to break several of that rapist's bones, and sleep well with an intact bunghole like 90% of the time .



[/ QUOTE ]

Lol nobody caught onto the numbers I used?

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

Snowball,

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. If the majority of consumers in this market wanted the same thing you want, then the classes offered by the for-profit schools would reflect that.

Most people probably say they want to learn real and efective self-defense in these classes, but obviously not, because the results of the market have shown otherwise. Most people actually want the fantasy role-playing or whatever you called it, and that's what the for-profit companies offer the most of. If people didn't want that, the demand for those classes would decrease.

The for-profit martial arts market is providing the product that consumers demand just as well if not better than any other for-profit market.

It's not yours or anyone else's responsibility to force people to take certain kinds of martial arts classes just because you think it would be better for them.

Unfortunately for you, you don't want the same product that most people want. Tough noogies.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]

Your logic is fundamentally flawed. If the majority of consumers in this market wanted the same thing you want, then the classes offered by the for-profit schools would reflect that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just like the majority of consumers of used cars want to buy lemons, right?

I can 100% swear to you that the people in these McDojos are mainly interested in self-defense, and if they knew that the training they received didn't work, they wouldn't go there.

The key thing to realize here is that there is no legitimate transaction taking place. If I say I will sell you an insurance policy on your home, and it's not worth the paper it's printed on, what *exactlty* have I sold you. Surely, it's not what you "demanded"

People are being sold an insurance policy on getting attacked. Usually, they're not gonna get attacked, and they're think "oh my training is GREAT!" and no harm will be done to them. Similarly, usually your house won't be destroyed in a hurricane, and in that case, I'm not really harming you am I?

The utter lack of market dynamics in this field is astounding. If people were getting attacked on the street all the time, or AT LEAST if they classes had real sparring or did competitions, THEN you could argue that the students were getting what they demanded.

[ QUOTE ]

It's not yours or anyone else's responsibility to force people to take certain kinds of martial arts classes just because you think it would be better for them.



[/ QUOTE ]

Who is talking about forcing anyone to do anything? This thread isn't about the state. DIDN'T YOU READ THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE IN MY POST? If there were a ballot measure to ban fantasy martial arts schools, I would vote against it.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

Snowball,

Surely there's a free market solution here. Have the good martial arts school people print up posters, fliers. t-shirts etc claiming that the bad martial arts school people are only doing fantasy self defense and if they get uppity challenge them to a self defense off. If what people really want is self defense then when the real group proves themselves as the best they'll start to get the most customers. Of course if you do all this and people are still indifferent you have to accept that people don't care about self defense and are just doing it to look cool or some other reason.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

"
conclusion: sometimes the profit motive sucks.
"

Non profit organizations cannot survive without the good will of others; so yes, while that good will exists no profit organizations are fine but what if that good will goes away? So anything non profit organizations do is great but not neccessary going to be around; profit organizations are self sustaining.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

I only scanned this thread, but to me the conclusion is obviously:

Voluntary >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> involuntary.


Non-profit (if that's what it really is, unlike state sponsored and regulated stuff), and profit is the same class. It's voluntary trade. Sometimes people trade with money and goods, sometimes they trade goods and goods, sometimes they give to others and get karma in return, it's all voluntary.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

Ok, for the sake of argument, I'll go along with your observation that most consumers in this market want the same product you want.

The reason why you get the real deal and most people get an imitation, is not because the producer has failed, it's because of the stupidity of the consumer. The consumers have failed to demand the right product, and they have no one to blame but themselves. The for-profit martial arts schools are doing exactly what they're supposed to do, and that system is not flawed in this market.

This market looks like it could benefit from a Consumer Reports type of service to educate the consumer about how to get what they really want. I smell a good business opportunity for you...

[ QUOTE ]
Who is talking about forcing anyone to do anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

No one. I just threw that in there to get a rise out of you. That's what you're supposed to do in this forum right?

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

Also, I'm not really sure you can classify the judo classes as 'non profit' in the same way say Goodwill is nonprofit. Is Scientology really a non profit institution? They function in a very similiar manner as your judo class, just on a much larger scale.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

I think any place that people volunteer their time, energy, and resources there is going to be an edge when compated to for profit charge for time, energy, and resources.

In the Judo class you have several 'volunteer' instructors who are giving their time, energy, and skills to the others for free. The location of the judo 'club' may very well be funded partly by donations (recources given for free).

When comparing where to be a recipient of goods and services, all other things being equal, one will get better value from the places that are giving them away for free.

There is an underlying principle at work in the judo club that is not present to nearly the same degree in the other places, social reciprocity. I would encourage you to explore the genesis of the judo club and the other 2 clubs.

In the judo club it likely started out with a volunteer component whereby the instructor was activly choosing to not get top $ for his services and the initial students likely knew this. In other words the club and/or the initial instructor(s) were extending a FAVOR to the initial students. This is a primary way that humans form social bonds. One human extends a courtesy to another human. Relationships of significant emotional value are formed this way. In turn the students continue the tradition and pass on the courtesy by helping the newer students and they are choosing to do it freely under the dynamic of social reciprocity.

(businesses try to use this powerful human force to 'trick' people into engaging in business with them because how powerful it is, there are books devoted to it and you can read up on it in the psychology field NLP. I am certain sales training techniques teach this concept and teach sales trainee's how to utilize it, albeit probably under different nomenclature).

Now how did the other places start? Likely a for profit minded person rented a space from another for profit minded person and then began to offer contractual services and found others who entered into a business-customer relationship. There may be social reciprocity undertones to some degree but the primary relationships in the latter 2 places are business relationships.

Social reciprocity creates and stustains friendships and loving relationships over the course of lifetimes. It is not a formal contractual system, people can accept the inital courtesy and turn tail and run and frequently they do (this is the way to counteract the salesman who is attempting to trick you into doing business with him when he extends a fake 'favor' or 'gift' under the guise of a genuine one, or you simply decline the gift outright. i.e. A salesman comes to your door and offers to let you try product X for a week 'for free' He is doing this not because the product is absolutely wonderful, he is doing it to create a sense of indebtedness. You either call him on it (unless he seems to be some poor schlub who was told to do this but seems to dim to understand what he is acutally doing), decline the free use which people mostly do (althought they do not consciously reason this is why they are declining, this IS why they are declining, to not get stuck in a reciprocity bind) or you accept the free stuff and refuse to allow yourself to feel any indebtedness (the discomfort feeling you have now anticipating the return of the saleman lol) and tell him matter of factly you took the stuff for free use with no intention of buying it because he tried to trick you a la the reciproctiy principle (if he seems savvy enough to realize he is using this) or simply thank him and decline the purchase and send him quickly on his way (knowing the company owner knows full well of the reciprocity principle and is using the salesman to dupe you into buying something you really dont' want and would not have otherwise purchased).

Powerful, powerful stuff.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please don't respond to this thread if you want to talk about why central planning is bad. This isn't about that at all.

Anyway, here goes.

I go to 3 different martial arts schools. Judo charges $20 per month for three 2 hour lessons per week. Jeet Kune Do charges $40 per month for one 2 hour class per week. The Third I'll call Jun Fan, and it charges $120 per month for two 90 minute classes per week.

Judo is nonprofit. It's run as a club/sports organization. I think I would rank Judo as the best training that I currently engage in. The class is VERY VERY hard. I frequently get injured. I often get thrown hard or submitted on the ground. Most people would hate to be in this class unless they were in reasonable shape.

The advantages of the judo class are that everything you learn is extremely practical, and you learn it in a way that teaches you how to apply it in a violent encounter against a strong, and capable fighter.
We spare for about an hour total every class. The other hour is warmup/instruction in techniques. There;s no such thing as having a false sense of self-confidence in Judo. You spar every class, including your first day, and there's almost always someone much better than you.


The 2nd best class I go to is the Jeet Kune Do class. I might rank it first, except it only meets once a week, and we don't do as much sparring. We learn very few techniques in this class. Everything is refinement, and it's refinement through hard work. All of the drills we do are very alive. You will sometimes get hit in the drills, because they are done at a high speed, and the attitude in the class is that getting hit is the price you pay for screwing up and it's the only way to learn. We spare for about 15 minutes at the end of class.
Everything is allowed in the sparring. We wear boxing gloves, and shin guards, and groin protectors, and use mouthguards, and we don't go full power out of courtesy, but we still go full speed and you still get hurt.

The third best class is the Jun Fan class. We learn new, and somewhat complicated techniques almost every class. There is zero sparring for many students, even those who have been there for 18 months or more. The drills are done in a slow manner, and your partner is there to basically assist you in completing your technique, instead of acting as a resistant opponent.

What's happening in the case of this third school is that the seller is able to give the consumer something that appears to be what the consumer wants, and he is able to do this for a long period of time without the student having the ability to tell the difference. Students come to learn how to defend themselves effectively, but instead they end up learning fantasy roleplaying techniques.

Most markets in capitalism seem to function in a very different way than this, because:

1. The consumer can tell beforehand if the product sucks

and at the very least

2. After the initial transaction ("small buy") the consumer can decide to continue to make that purchase, based on whether it satisfied a need or not.

In the case of nonprofit martial arts schools, like my Judo school, they really don't care very much if you join or not, and they're not there to make you feel good about yourself. They are there to teach you how to compete effectively so that you can do well in tournaments, and so you can continue the tradition of the school and help to teach other students later on.

conclusion: sometimes the profit motive sucks.

Ok, sorry if you think I'm being captain obvious here, but I mainly made this post in he hopes that some of you would share some other examples of when non-profit organizations might outperform for-profit organizations.

One I was thinking about, but I'm not sure about, is the practice of psychology.

[/ QUOTE ]

snowball,

I think you bring up good points about the desirability (in some cases) of non-profit stuff. This isn't to say I entirely agree with your analysis, but I think it's safe to say that both for-profit and non-profit have their advantages and disadvantages, and that an ideal society would probably have some of both, each doing what they do best.

Now, as for your specific example, as a fellow martial artist I think you are unfair to assume that everyone wants the same thing in a martial arts class--I'm sure everyone wants to learn some degree of basic self-defense, but many (myself included) want to learn other things beyond that. I know I wouldn't be happy at a school that focused solely on self-defense and sparring (at the expense of, say, forms), since I think the forms are beautiful and I love doing them.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
People are being sold an insurance policy on getting attacked. Usually, they're not gonna get attacked, and they're think "oh my training is GREAT!" and no harm will be done to them. Similarly, usually your house won't be destroyed in a hurricane, and in that case, I'm not really harming you am I?


[/ QUOTE ]

There probably isnt a market for hard core martial arts courses because people in these areas arent constantly being attack by super ninjas on their way home from work.

The average joe is provided much more protection from random crime just by the fact that they drive everywhere and dont spend their free time around a bunch drunken hooligans. So its much more likely that these people prefer a form of exercise that is provided by a light form of martial arts. Martial arts as a sport can used as a fun past time without the expectation that you are going to use it to protect yourself double dragon style.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who is talking about forcing anyone to do anything? This thread isn't about the state. DIDN'T YOU READ THE VERY FIRST SENTENCE IN MY POST? If there were a ballot measure to ban fantasy martial arts schools, I would vote against it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is something that needs to be pointed out about this thread. You pointed out a minor 'market failure' without the need to expand that small example to complete government control. I think its possible that minor market failures can occur in a free market when the cost to the consumer of correcting them is fairly minor. Now when people start using lighthouses for justification of government control of the money supply, I think thats a little rediculous.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

Probably sex is better without the profit motive. (But Nielsio is still right and voluntary>involuntary!)

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People are being sold an insurance policy on getting attacked. Usually, they're not gonna get attacked, and they're think "oh my training is GREAT!" and no harm will be done to them. Similarly, usually your house won't be destroyed in a hurricane, and in that case, I'm not really harming you am I?


[/ QUOTE ]

There probably isnt a market for hard core martial arts courses because people in these areas arent constantly being attack by super ninjas on their way home from work.

The average joe is provided much more protection from random crime just by the fact that they drive everywhere and dont spend their free time around a bunch drunken hooligans. So its much more likely that these people prefer a form of exercise that is provided by a light form of martial arts. Martial arts as a sport can used as a fun past time without the expectation that you are going to use it to protect yourself double dragon style.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are potentially other factors at play as well. OP stated that a person who was not in good shape would proably not like the judo classes so it is not fair to assess that the physical contact in the judo class is a +EV experience for everyone and a lot of people are not willing to pay the price, considering the pain and suffering a 'necessary evil'.

There is also status. Some people are happy having more expensive goods and services even if they are not getting comprable value. They get it from paying more or for having a unique good or service.

Additionally, people value the illusion of safety. Participating in martial arts training provides this. People who want real personal safety take judo, boxing, or glock-fu. All of these have addition drawbacks (in some people's view, in others view they are benefits) that a fluff martial arts class does not have.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
"
conclusion: sometimes the profit motive sucks.
"

Non profit organizations cannot survive without the good will of others; so yes, while that good will exists no profit organizations are fine but what if that good will goes away? So anything non profit organizations do is great but not neccessary going to be around; profit organizations are self sustaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily true. It is only true so long as people value profit and do not value things such as benevolance. It is contingent upon people's values.

It is quite possible that the world will evolve into democracy, then move to AC, then move onto communal living or whatever.

None of us have a crystal ball.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Ok, sorry if you think I'm being captain obvious here, but I mainly made this post in he hopes that some of you would share some other examples of when non-profit organizations might outperform for-profit organizations."

The church outperfroms the state.

[/ QUOTE ]

YOur going to have to give me some examples to choose from. I think non profit entities often have different goals than for profit entities so you wind up measuring 2 different things I think.

What about not for profit friendships outperform for profit friendships.

Not for profit social relationships outperform for profit social relationships.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I've been to many for profit gyms structured the way your judo gym is structured. I currently do jujitzu at a forprofit place that has the exact same structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have brought this up in OP. There are definitely very good products and services that are produced for profit, however, if I do a search in los angeles for "brazilian jiu-jitsu" and a search for "Karate" I get 10x more results for karate. Guess which one is more effective, and more challenging?
Karate students are looking for the same thing that BJJ students are looking for, and they think they're getting it, but they aren't.

Standard dogma is that the only way for a business to succeed is to please their consumers. There are some markets where this seems to systemically not be the case. What % of karate students do you think would be pleased if they were in jail and their cellmate tried to rape them? My guess is maybe 10%. A BJJ student is going to break several of that rapist's bones, and sleep well with an intact bunghole like 90% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

YOur making a lot of assumptions about the karate students and that is not fair whether you realize it or not. A whole crapload of karate students do not want full balls on grapping training and the pain and suffering that comes along with it. They want quazi self defense exercise lite and a lot want it extra lite.

People who want to be tough as nails can go training in a boxing gym, judo, and bjj dojo's night and day and then practice with friends for free night and day 7 days a week.

They can start out by doing aerobic exercise and streaching llite weight training drills for free 4 hrs a day, 7 days a week for a year or so without paying anyone a dime.

Some people want knowledge, some want a degree. Some want both. One is free, the other costs 100k.

Some people want skills, others want status and something to talk to their friends about.

If I become best friends with the Gracie family where they just think I"m fantastic and it pleases them to have me around, am I going to get better value from trading my friendship with them for training, or am I going to get better value from paying some fairly high rated bbj school?

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only industry I know where there is a plethora of products equally as good if not better than commercial alternatives is the software industry and its various form of free open-source movement. The really interesting aspect of this is that where there exists a free product alternative of equal or superior quality it hasn't destroyed the commercial alternatives viability.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people perfer conforming or going along with the majority rather than finding the lowest $ cost good or service.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only industry I know where there is a plethora of products equally as good if not better than commercial alternatives is the software industry and its various form of free open-source movement. The really interesting aspect of this is that where there exists a free product alternative of equal or superior quality it hasn't destroyed the commercial alternatives viability.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people perfer conforming or going along with the majority rather than finding the lowest $ cost good or service.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're called statists! Hehe

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]

If I become best friends with the Gracie family where they just think I"m fantastic and it pleases them to have me around, am I going to get better value from trading my friendship with them for training, or am I going to get better value from paying some fairly high rated bbj school?



[/ QUOTE ]

Tough decision. It's hard to turn down a brazilian BJ.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]

Now, as for your specific example, as a fellow martial artist I think you are unfair to assume that everyone wants the same thing in a martial arts class--I'm sure everyone wants to learn some degree of basic self-defense, but many (myself included) want to learn other things beyond that. I know I wouldn't be happy at a school that focused solely on self-defense and sparring (at the expense of, say, forms), since I think the forms are beautiful and I love doing them.


[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough, but do you think that people like you account for the extreme differential between 2700 karate schools and 270 BJJ schools?

A lot of people will leave stylistic schools when they realize their training leaves something to be desired self-defense wise. My first JKD instructor was one of those people. He got threw his kempo black belt in the trash when he realized that despite all the training he had, he still didn't know how to defend himself.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Now, as for your specific example, as a fellow martial artist I think you are unfair to assume that everyone wants the same thing in a martial arts class--I'm sure everyone wants to learn some degree of basic self-defense, but many (myself included) want to learn other things beyond that. I know I wouldn't be happy at a school that focused solely on self-defense and sparring (at the expense of, say, forms), since I think the forms are beautiful and I love doing them.


[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough, but do you think that people like you account for the extreme differential between 2700 karate schools and 270 BJJ schools?

A lot of people will leave stylistic schools when they realize their training leaves something to be desired self-defense wise. My first JKD instructor was one of those people. He got threw his kempo black belt in the trash when he realized that despite all the training he had, he still didn't know how to defend himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

How long has karate been around and how long has BJJ been around? Do you think this might have something to do with it as well? You don't really expect as many people who know of karate to know of BJJ do you? Nor should you think that they should I would venture to say.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

[ QUOTE ]
This market looks like it could benefit from a Consumer Reports type of service to educate the consumer about how to get what they really want. I smell a good business opportunity for you...

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The market is benefiting from a "Consumer Reports". And I think that Snowball might be underestimating how much the market has propelled practical martial arts like Muay Thai and BJJ and pulled down some of the charlatans.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

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Additionally, people value the illusion of safety. Participating in martial arts training provides this. People who want real personal safety take judo, boxing, or glock-fu. All of these have addition drawbacks (in some people's view, in others view they are benefits) that a fluff martial arts class does not have.

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Agree. Maybe these pussies don't want to get hurt sparing. They want a false sense of security because it is less work and pain.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

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fair enough, but do you think that people like you account for the extreme differential between 2700 karate schools and 270 BJJ schools?

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No; I think your points have something to do with it as well (the point being, I think, that when people have some desire--like to learn self-defense--but they don't know exactly what constitutes 'good' self-defense, there is at least potential for markets to produce what people believe is good rather than what is good, and hence non-profit provisions as well as consumer reports, etc are good remedies to this deficiency).

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A lot of people will leave stylistic schools when they realize their training leaves something to be desired self-defense wise. My first JKD instructor was one of those people. He got threw his kempo black belt in the trash when he realized that despite all the training he had, he still didn't know how to defend himself.

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I am sure lots of people feel this way. I think when I started, I was mostly concerned with self-defense and sparring; but over time I learned to value the other stuff in martial arts even more than the ability to defend myself. In any case, I can't speak for others, but my training in tae kwon do gives me confidence that I could defend myself reasonably well, should the need arise.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

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It is quite possible that the world will evolve into democracy, then move to AC, then move onto communal living or whatever.

None of us have a crystal ball.

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we have the crystal ball of history. Your scenario will happen when the universe begins to collapse on itself and broken bottles unfall from the table and re-form

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

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Your logic is fundamentally flawed. If the majority of consumers in this market wanted the same thing you want, then the classes offered by the for-profit schools would reflect that.

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Snowball, this guy is defining what is better by what the market provides. There's no answering a tautology.

Example of a superior non-profit product:

Pacifica Radio, Democracy Now, provide more sophisticated,accurate,and unbiased news than commercial stations. It is much more intellectually serious radio. It's the being non-commercial that gives it independence.

Yet another non-profit, NPR, is just the New York Times on radio, 95% subservient to Washington. Go figure.

I've had the same experience as you -- a hobbiest at the Y gave far better instruction in Tae Kwon Do than the commercial place that charged up the wazoo, and then added hidden charges for unnecesarily frequent testing.

Free market dogmatists will say that's what people want, therefore it is right. But it isn't better, as judged from the standpoint of the artform. They are defining desirable results by whether they are from free, not non-commercial markets. Which is the secret behind libertarian sophistry. (but I do really appreciate what Ron Paul is saying about foreign policy. Spot on and courageous.)

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

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Pacifica Radio, Democracy Now, provide more sophisticated,accurate,and unbiased news than commercial stations. It is much more intellectually serious radio. It's the being non-commercial that gives it independence.

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I dunno if we're listening to the same station or not, but like half their shows are hosted by fruit juice drinking, sandal wearing nudists with vegetarian leanings, voluminous knowledge of feng shui, and a powerful devotion to the earth spirit Gaia.

They're so quacked out on that station that I simply cannot listen to it. Sure, they occasionally have Noam Chomsky on the air, but other than that, I feel like I'm dodging bullets whenever they report "facts" to me.

The standard of journalism on their news shows is embarassingly low that it absolutely has to be worse than fox news. Partly, it's because they don't have any resources, and partly it's because they're crossed too many lines, and are basically past the point of no return from receiving flack.

It's routine for them to have guests on the air that spout of wild conspiracy theories, or for them to run reports that are verifiably false. An example of this would be that during the invasion of Iraq, they were giving strong consideration to stories about how well the Iraqi military was doing. I mean, COME ON.

One time they ran an interview supposedly by a veteran of the first gulf war who was supposedly part of a special ops team that set fire to the kuwaiti oil fields so that Saddam would look bad. what what what!?

Their coverage of the events leading up the Iraq war was excellent in parts. I used to listen to the morning show with Sonali Kolhotkar (sp?) every day on my drive to school, and then in the evening I'd read through various newspapers and verify the stuff I heard, or do an internet search.

The MSM screwed us so badly before the invasion that I'm surprised that any americans can feel any level of trust for CNN, etc. ever again. Michael Moore was right to call out Wolf Blitzer on the air IMO, but he didn't go far enough. Some of these bastards deserve a lot more than a righteous chiding.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

wtf you don't like Democracy Now? I love it, even though every guest is a socialist; I especially liked the Finklestein vs Derschowitz debates, Derschowitz mopped the floor with that fraud.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

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Your logic is fundamentally flawed. If the majority of consumers in this market wanted the same thing you want, then the classes offered by the for-profit schools would reflect that.

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Snowball, this guy is defining what is better by what the market provides. There's no answering a tautology.

Example of a superior non-profit product:

Pacifica Radio, Democracy Now, provide more sophisticated,accurate,and unbiased news than commercial stations. It is much more intellectually serious radio.

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This guy is defining what is superior by his subjective personal preferences. There's no answering a tautology.

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Free market dogmatists will say that's what people want, therefore it is right. But it isn't better, as judged from the standpoint of the artform. They are defining desirable results by whether they are from free, not non-commercial markets.

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I'm not sure I get this "free market/non-profit" dichotimy. Nonprofits are PART of a free market, not an alternative to it.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

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It is quite possible that the world will evolve into democracy, then move to AC, then move onto communal living or whatever.

None of us have a crystal ball.

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we have the crystal ball of history. Your scenario will happen when the universe begins to collapse on itself and broken bottles unfall from the table and re-form

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The real Copernicus was much more open-minded.

Re: non-profit stuff that is better than for-profit stuff
 

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wtf you don't like Democracy Now? I love it, even though every guest is a socialist; I especially liked the Finklestein vs Derschowitz debates, Derschowitz mopped the floor with that fraud.



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Amy Goodman rules, and her show is very well produced, but she's with pacifica, not just specifically with KPFK. Still, I should have mentioned her as a very important exception. I guess I just got carried away by my bitter disappointment over the way KPFK is run.