Tells
 

Well, since I posted two hands tonight that got no responses [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

When i am back home (which I am currently not), I play in a lot of home games. These range from 25 to 100 dollar buy-in games, so theres plenty of money on the table and the action good. There is a typical gang of sharks, fish, wanna-be TAGs, actual TAGs, etc. Seeing as I've played 20k hands between the last time I played against them and now, I look forward to playing again.

however, I don't often play live, and when I do I feel that picking up tells is the weakest part of my game.

So here are my questions:
1) What tells do you use regularly?
2) How do you mask your own tells? (i.e. neck pulse, nervousness)
3) What kinds of tells have you found online?


I'll start it off with a good one a friend told me once. With the inexperienced player (or one who doesn't know this information), yes means no. So, if you ask him "how do you like your hand?" and he says "pretty good" , he is probably weak. If he says, "nah it's terrible" he is probably strong. I've found this to be effective.

What say ye, gentlemen?

Re: Tells
 

The most obvious and usually accurate one that I've found is the shaky hands. As your opponent is reaching down for his stack, and putting chips into the pot, watch his hands. If they're shaking, it's likely that he just hit a monster.

Re: Tells
 

1) Mike Caro University explains the art of observing tells very well. I recommend that you consult this website, MCU.

2) I mask my tells by harnessing all of my emotions when I play.

3) As regards online tells, I have noticed that min-bets smack of drawing/weak hands. Also, odd bets, such as $1.63, smack of extreme strength or extreme weakness.

Re: Tells
 

Hi BalugaWhale,

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Well, since I posted two hands tonight that got no responses

[/ QUOTE ]

I just answered both, was busy watching TV earlier and just got here and had a multitude of posts to wade through!

Tells - for most people weak means strong and strong means weak so you're friends advice is usually good. Mike Caro's Book of Tells is excellent in showing via pictures a bunch of good tells. Some of the more obvious ones ... staring at the flop means they missed it. Quickly looking away means they hit it. Glancing down at either their chips or your chips means they hit it good and plan on betting. You have to be watching your opponents and not the flop to see these.

How I mask my own tells when in Vegas - I go with a long beard so they can't see my neck. I wear a thick leather jacket so they can't see my breathing rate (I'm a thin guy). I wear extremely dark sunglasses so they can't see my eyes or where I am really looking. I also wear a baseball type cap pulled low to further hide my eyes/face. I sit motionless and don't engage in any conversation when in a hand, and look like I am just staring at the pot the whole hand (though behind my sunglasses I am checking out villain).

Online tells - how fast or slow they check/bet/raise. Table talk. Of course betting patterns and bet sizes. Find out what street each villain likes to bet. Some will wait one street after they hit their hand to bet, others will bet when they hit it.

Garon

Re: Tells
 

In my experience, betting patterns are the best tell by an order of magnitude. Look for people who vary preflop raises or flop bet sizes, see what gets showdown, remember. For example, one guy I know tends to bet weak (~1/2 pot)with a draw or sometimes with a monster, a pot-size bet typically means an ok hand (2nd pair, TPWK) where he wants to know where he is at, and overbets mean bluff or nuts, depending a little on board texture. So a pot-size bet on the flop means reraise big with any two as often as you think you can get away with it without him catching on.

Shaking hands often do mean a monster, beware the speech (lot of undecided talking followed by an all-in). If they really suck, then you can look for really weak player tells (none of these are at my home game) --
leans back in chair/away from table -- trying to appear non-threatening -- they are strong.
in your face/betting physically aggressively (slamming chips down, splashing the pot), even towards you at the table -- they are weak.
quick calls -- usually a draw.

Re: Tells
 

I've got to reiterate the Caro's Book of Tells as the bible on this subject. It's worth reading. A few key points:

1. Weak is strong, strong is weak. If someone is acting like they're a superpower, they're full of crap. If someone is acting like a mouse, fear them.

2. Hands are important -- that shaking thing is key. Related to this is how they handle their chips. Often, people will bet with force when they've got nothing and bet very gently when they're strong. Also, you can often find "telegraphs" of what a person will do by watching their hands before it is their turn. Some people pick up chips or start to touch their chips or reach towards their chips when they're planning to bet; others will fondle their chips very deliberately when they are looking to check/fold and would rather have a free card. If a player covers his mouth with his hand, he's more likely to be bluffing.

3. Eyes are important -- check where they are looking. Someone willing to stare at you while you're deciding if you should call a bet or not is weak; someone who looks away and pretends they are uninterested is usually quite strong.

4. People who stack their chips sloppily tend to be loose players; people who stack their chips meticulously tend to be tight players. People who (re)buy loudly and openly tend to be loose players; people who (re)buy quietly and subtly tend to be tight players. (People who don't HAVE to rebuy tend to be good players. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] )

5. Anybody who shrugs, sighs, *tsk*s, groans, or sags their shoulders before they bet/raise has an ungodly monster. Get out of the damned hand.

Re: Tells
 

See this thread from B&M

Re: Tells
 

Betting speed is probably the most reliable tell online. Stay observant and pay attention. Fast bets usually tend to be very very weak or very strong. The long pause then check is tends to be weak. The long pause then bet tends to be a monster. This is not the case for many players though (particularly the multitabler.) In general look for inconsistencies in player's betting patterns and exploit that information.

Regarding live tells, I just stare into their souls and laugh. Seriously, I've found creating a friendly atmosphere at the table makes things much more profitable. I've found players having a good time are very easy to read.

Re: Tells
 

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If they're shaking, it's likely that he just hit a monster.

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I second that, the very first time i played at a B&M, i hit AA then flopped a boat, and my hands were shaking away, even though i tried to conceal them...

Re: Tells
 

Hi Quarkncover,

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Seriously, I've found creating a friendly atmosphere at the table makes things much more profitable. I've found players having a good time are very easy to read.

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This is very true. When I sit down at a table in Vegas I start gabbing it up in quite a friendly way. I'll get a quiet table laughing and having a good time in no time. It's only when I am in a hand (and I play fairly tight so I'm not in too many) do I sit there as I described.

Garon

P.S. - Anyone ever put on "acts" at the table?

Re: Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]

Hi Quarkncover,

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Seriously, I've found creating a friendly atmosphere at the table makes things much more profitable. I've found players having a good time are very easy to read.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. When I sit down at a table in Vegas I start gabbing it up in quite a friendly way. I'll get a quiet table laughing and having a good time in no time. It's only when I am in a hand (and I play fairly tight so I'm not in too many) do I sit there as I described.

Garon

P.S. - Anyone ever put on "acts" at the table?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a beard or do you wear a fake beard?

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tells
 

i always wear fake beard

Re: Tells
 

this is good stuff! Keep it coming.

"I mask my tells by harnessing all of my emotions when I play."


Easier said than done. It is very difficult to act identical when you're putting it all in with the nuts as when you're putting it all in on a SCB.

Any tricks you guys use?

Re: Tells
 

Real beard, full, thick, and fast growing. When I used to work a real job I had to bring a razor and shave during lunch. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Garon

Re: Tells
 

Advice is great so far. Keep them coming...

In my homegame experience, I've found chatty opponents during a hand= they have a hand. If you've ever pulled a big bluff, you'll (sometimes) find it hard to speak at times, and you are sometimes akward, stammering. If your opponents can speak clearly w/ no emotion, I've found they usually have a hand.

Mike Caro's book is excellent, (Caro's book of tells, recommended), and most of the advice is based on strong=weak and vice versa. I agree with most of the advice given, but it really depends on the level of your competition. If they are smart enough to fake tells (I've done it in the past to one of my friends who thought he was a super reader), then be cautious.

I've found hand reading to be much more valuable in live poker (and online I guess) than tells.

Re: Tells
 

Other tells I've seen in Vegas ...

One guy who was on the draw would always mumble "shoot" (except it wasn't shoot, replace the oo with i) each street when he didn't hit it.

Another guy on a missed draw with a 3 flush on board with him holding the Ace drawing to the nut flush at the end would say ... Do you know where the Ace is? (I've seen this twice online too). This was always with two on the flop and the turn making the 3rd flush card on the board. Oh, all 3 of them (live guy and the two online) bluffed the flush when checked to on the river.

One guy in a home game would always grab his money jar and shake it while staring at you saying something like let's go, or want to raise me, etc. in an animated way. Always meant he was bluffing. (this was a very low stakes 25 cent limit stud game).

An "act" I've used in Vegas - The stumbling drunk. Order a beer and a whiskey every time the waitress comes around. Pretend to drink the beer but don't. Go to the bathroom a lot (you've been drinking afterall) and pour out the beer into the toilet, use the whiskey as cologne for that drunken alcoholic smell. Slur speech. Talk a lot. Now they won't notice you hardly play a hand as you're talking a lot. And your monsters will get called down by people with Ace high! [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Garon

Re: Tells
 

The way amateur's handle their cards tend to be a very reliable tell. For example, the "holding cards up while shuffling them back and forth" is an opponent cursing the gods trying to make his cards change into something better. Keep your eye open for opponents ready to fold out of turn [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] or opponents hungrily eyeing their chips.

Re: Tells
 

I've noticed in a live game I sometimes play in, newbies who have A's look at their hand once and then never again and then they stare anxiously at board and can't wait to bet.

Online, I've found the turbo check when the flush card hits on turn or river, usually means he hit it and really wants that C/R.

Re: Tells
 

I am loving this thread.

Re: Tells
 

One tell that I see a surprising amount with amateur players is when on a draw, you can literally see them nod their eyes or head in a counting manner, counting whether they have a straight. It happens enough to make it important to notice. Even just longer looks at draw heavy boards are tells.

Re: Tells
 

(Online)
The infamous limp-reraise all-in pf while writing in the chat something like "I hate raisers...". Of course that is AA or KK.

Re: Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
(Online)
The infamous limp-reraise all-in pf while writing in the chat something like "I hate raisers...". Of course that is AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or he/she types- "it's late, I gotta go to bed" = AA!

Re: Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
One tell that I see a surprising amount with amateur players is when on a draw, you can literally see them nod their eyes or head in a counting manner, counting whether they have a straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is hysterical.

Re: Tells
 

Timing.
Sometimes I can tell what people have just by the time they use.
One friend I play with always takes his time with a draw,
but strong hands are played quickly.

Re: Tells
 

An online tell if you play against me:
I luuuv taking my time when an aggressive donk bets into me strongly,
and I hold the nuts.
Invariably, this makes the donk think:
"OMG!!1!! I CAN PUSH HIM OFF HIS HAND!!"
I can virtually feel his blood go cold when i call his all-in.

Re: Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you mask your own tells?

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Beer. Lot's of it. If you even you don't know what you're doing, there's no way in hell your opponents are gonna figure it out.

Re: Tells
 

1) What tells do you use regularly?
Caro's Book of Tells. It's all in there. Watch their hands. People can control a lot of things (e.g. facial expressions), but they don't know what to do with their hands. My favorite tell is observing what cards my opponents are playing and how they're playing them.

2) How do you mask your own tells? (i.e. neck pulse, nervousness)
I try to consistently be myself and act naturally, no matter what cards I'm holding.

3) What kinds of tells have you found online?
Nothing is 100%, but here are some things I look for:

- a player who continues to rant in the chat box after someone lays a bad beat on him is someone you can take advantage of. solid players know that this is a part of the game and don't let it affect their play.

- if I'm on the button and it's checked to me twice, I auto bet regardless of what I have. pick and choose your spots, but it works a high percentage of the time.

- solid players reload if stacks get low. a player who starts with a full stack but doesn't reload when he's down to 25BB is probably not good.

- limp-reraise from a solid player UTG is probably KK or AA

- 500+ PokerTracker hands on someone is a clue as to what type of player they are

- observe what hands people are playing and from what positions. someone who open limps with K7s from UTG is not as good as someone who raises with 66 in the cutoff when folded to him.

Re: Tells
 

Sorry to rain on the parade, but tells, for the most part are overrated, especially at home games. In my home game there is a guy who grabs a 'cheat sheet' every time he has a full house because he can't remember if it beats flush.

Short of this, most of the guys I play with don't have any idea how strong their hand really is. One guy will call down with middle pair like it's the stone cold nuts. Of course, he doesn't realize he's toast, but his body language suggests he has a monster.

Caro's tells are fine, but they only work on maybe 75% of the population. The other 25% either have the opposite tell or the tell means nothing (he mentions that in his book). I agree that the hand shake usually means a monster (everyone also knows it) so guess what, I develop Parkinson's everytime I bluff if I think someone is paying attention.

Just stay alert and observe their behavior when they win a pot and try to see what they do. The easiest tells are when a player behind you plans to fold, but that really doesn't help you all that much. You need hours and hours of live experience before you can be confident of a subtle tell.

Re: Tells
 

The only home game ones I've effectively used are what Garon mentioned:

Some of the more obvious ones ... staring at the flop means they missed it. Quickly looking away means they hit it. Glancing down at either their chips or your chips means they hit it good and plan on betting.

I have a couple of buddies who are consistently guilty of this.

Re: Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
Glancing down at either their chips or your chips means they hit it good and plan on betting.


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I always stare at my opponents chips when I bet in a live casino game (regardless of my holding). It has been +EV so far.

Re: Tells
 

Tells are so personality dependent. We used to play a regular game at work and I found that tell 'generalities' were way off.

We had a player that would always stare at the board when he hit the flop solid. Same guy would also double check his cards when he hits just to make sure before betting (typically you see this with flush draws checking their suit not made hands).

Most people tend to bet the perceived value of their hand in our game. Bottom pair bets the minimum and so forth...

Some people get very chatty when they've made a good hand, others get dead silent.

As for hiding my own tells? I just use them against people. I'm very self conscious, so I'm quite aware of what I'm doing and how I may be perceived, i then change my behavior accordingly if I think one of my oppenents has picked up on it. I was at one point betting in an aggressive physical manner on bluffs or draws (splashing the chips rather than placing) as soon as I noticed a guy picked up on it by playing back at me I waited for a good hand against him and caused him to play back at me.

Re: Tells
 

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tells, for the most part are overrated

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While this may be correct, I've seen picking up tells be a decisive difference, in live play especially. Caro himself even says that without tells, he'd lose half his profits (because he makes so many "exploratory bets"... that guy actually is crazy).

I think this information is very useful, I have learned a few things from this thread that I will look for.

As for my home games, they are of decent quality with a lot of money involved, and nobody is as bad as you mentioned (i.e. grabbing a cheat sheet to see what beats what). Reading body language I think will be pretty clutch for me in the future.

Re: Tells
 

baluga,

I didn't say they were worthless. I just think people vastly overrate their ability to spot a real tell. Most tells occur in less than a second when you are looking. I don't think the average ABC player loses much value by not spotting every potential tell.

I have played hundred of hours in home games and casinos and I can count on one hand the number of times I made a decision soley on a tell with no other reads. Most of the it was the shaky hand/look at chips tell, which are almost impossible for novices to disguise/fake.

In a home game with regular players, tells eventually become evident vs. 8 random donks in a casino.

Re: Tells
 

In an effort to mask mine, whenever I am in a hand I pick an arbitary spot and focus on that spot, usually the button or a chip in the dealers tray in a B&M, or a chip in the pot at a home game. I also try to think of something else, completely random, as to not give off information.

Re: Tells
 

Never played live poker (yet) - I was planning a trip to Gutshot in London this month - but can't afford to go right now [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] - it'll still be there in another month or so tho - so no worries...

Most of the people I have met tell me I have a great poker face - I tell them actually I have a great face for radio - but thats a different story [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I have always been very good at not giving away emotions and not reacting to stuff - I work in a busy kitchen for example - I am the only person I know there that can carry on having a conversation with someone without flinching or apparently noticing after an idiot waiter has dropped a tray of 50 glasses right behind me.

When I first started playing online poker once the pot got to be significant or I was dealt a monster I got a huge adrenaline rush - shaky hands etc - and I'm sure until I get used to playing live the same will happen. Once I get comfortable playing live tho I'm hoping that I will be relatively tell free...

Not read Caros book of tells yet - tho I definitely will get a copy before I do take the plunge live.

I have also started watching lots more live poker on TV - and I think it's very interesting to watch some of the events - particularly those that feature internet qualifiers as generally the pros have the tell thing nailed down. I've been trying recently to read their hands based on betting patterns and physical tells - with varying degrees of success. Obviously you need to turn off the commentary (tho it's normally Jesse May rambling - who is always a pleasure to mute) and cover up the hole cards - I find this fun tho [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tells
 

Hi EMcWilliams,

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I also try to think of something else, completely random

[/ QUOTE ]

Baseball? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Garon

Re: Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
One tell that I see a surprising amount with amateur players is when on a draw, you can literally see them nod their eyes or head in a counting manner, counting whether they have a straight. It happens enough to make it important to notice. Even just longer looks at draw heavy boards are tells.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few players at my home game table definitely do this. The problem is... did they hit...or are they still drawing?

Other tells that seem to be consistent are:
- how they put in their bet. a 'slam' on the table is usually a weak hand
- TONE of the voice - not what they actually say. I've caught myself doing it too. A quiet call is usually a stronger hand.

Re: Tells
 

One of the tells I find to be omnipresent in my home game is telegraphs. I decided to tune in to telegraphs more recently and was amazed at how many there were and that from the best to the least player all showed them. They are most often seen preflop so it's not a huge edge, but if I can see that several players ahead of me intend to fold and a couple behind me, that changes my starting requirements and action.

This last session I sat to the right of the LAG in the group and he was very nice to telegraph most decisions he made before I acted so I could decide whether to tangle with him or not.

The key is to match the tell with what the action and player's style is telling you. Tells alone don't get it done, but one in a while a small tell will make the action make sense in a way that lets you make a better decision.

Re: Tells
 

this spot is where my input will be of the most help...

Unless you are going to play with the same people each session I feel you are burning important brain cells that could be used later for more important things.. Say for instance you are in a large B&M tourny. 99.9% shure you will have never played with any of the players. and by the time you pick up on a tell ---ops--- you have been moved to another seat. and I really dont think that you and Joe shmoe will end up at the final table together and if by some chance you do his or her play will be totally different at this point in the game.. So My opinion is unless you sit at the same place all day and play with pretty much the same crowd and doin this for a living go with your gut and head and logic. save yourself the headaches as you already got enough to think about

Re: Tells
 

[ QUOTE ]

An "act" I've used in Vegas - The stumbling drunk.

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I almost cried when I read the part about pouring your beer down the toliet. I know you're trying to make more money, but good god man. Why don't you just sell your first born?