How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

Oaks' 30/60. About an equal mix of TAGs and LPs at this table. Ten handed. Folded around to a very solid presumable 2p2er who opens in the cutoff. I repop K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button. SB folds, and the BB calls. BB is weird... I've seen him openlimp in the first three positions at least 3 times in the last two hours, but he plays alright, relatively TAGish, post flop. He calls, and we're off to the flop with 4.83 small bets.

The flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB bets out, PF opener folds, and I decide to just call and reassess turn. 5.83 SB's.

The turn is unimportant, maybe the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I just call again, not wanting to put in 3 bets, as my call would leave me with 10.83:1 if I were to get three bet. I just call again.

The river is the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villian looks like he's thinking about betting, then checks. I bet. Villian checkraises. I puke in my mouth, then while attempting to appear nonchalant, fold pretty quickly. How much does this hand disgust you?

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

Why don't you give us his hand range here. I think the hand is probably easier to play if you just raise the flop.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

nevermind

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you give us his hand range here. I think the hand is probably easier to play if you just raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's assume his hand range is A9s+, AJo+, KQo+, QJs, any pair, maybe some suited connectors/one gappers.

I agree with you 100%. Not raising the flop is pretty gross.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

Ugh, a lot. Pots big, if you bet the river you have to call. I raise the flop and take it from there.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

given that you've underrepped your hand the whole way, this is an autocall.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

I wouldn't three bet preflop with KTs here.

Raising the flop or turn would've been customary.

As played, you have to call the river.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

There is a lot of gross thing about this thread.

I don't 3 bet some one that I respect with KT.

If I did I would raise the flop.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

Call.

He has KQ, just so you know.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

you played every street perfectly but I think you need to pay this raise off and hope he is doing something retarded.

btw, there are only 2 2p2ers that i know of who play that game--do you know the BB's name?

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

Seems like there are a few 2+2'ers playing at the Oaks. I've just recently started to play the 15-30 there, so far the games have been good.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of gross thing about this thread.

I don't 3 bet some one that I respect with KT.

If I did I would raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It felt extremely, extremely light. It's one of the few things about this horribly misplayed hands I really liked.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call.

He has KQ, just so you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

He approached me after the hand wanting to chat it up, so I am pretty confident that the hand he divulged was what he had. You are correct; it was KQ. At the time of the fold, I thought I'd been owned by 99, but by the time I had thought about it, I had it pegged as exactly KQ. I think AQ looks to CR my flop bet.

The bottom line is that I really lost the ability to define his hand (as well as lost the initiative) by just calling the flop.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
you played every street perfectly but I think you need to pay this raise off and hope he is doing something retarded.

btw, there are only 2 2p2ers that i know of who play that game--do you know the BB's name?

[/ QUOTE ]

No freaking way he's a 2p2'er. He plays well enough postflop to beat the 15 and maybe the 30, but... just no way. The CO in this hand was a blonde dude, shades, hat, mid-30s. He play v v goot. I'd have to imagine he's a 2p2er.

Rich was on super mega tilt yesterday. I don't think I've ever seen anyone capable of playing so solidly that can play so horribly when on tilt.

BB was late 50's, graying beard, rectangular glasses.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
you played every street perfectly but I think you need to pay this raise off and hope he is doing something retarded.


[/ QUOTE ]

One more thing... my image (and my play on that day) were pretty LAGgro... once BB bets and v v solid opener folds, I felt like a call might tingle his spidey sense, like "what is this lagtard doing... just calling a super coordinated flop after 3 betting PF?" This flop just mentally short-wired me. I didn't figure it to be a WA/WB situation, I just knew I wanted to get to showdown; in this case, in position and HU, cheaply.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]

given that you've underrepped your hand the whole way, this is an autocall.



[/ QUOTE ]

great point. He could have T8 here or a missed flush draw, or maybe he's trying to promo-raise his AQ or something. I don't see how we can fold this without a significant read. I mean, there are so many reasons to call. The pot size, the fact that we don't have way too many hands on him, the fact that hero underrepped hand.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oaks' 30/60. About an equal mix of TAGs and LPs at this table. Ten handed. Folded around to a very solid presumable 2p2er who opens in the cutoff. I repop K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the button. SB folds, and the BB calls. BB is weird... I've seen him openlimp in the first three positions at least 3 times in the last two hours, but he plays alright, relatively TAGish, post flop. He calls, and we're off to the flop with 4.83 small bets.

The flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB bets out, PF opener folds, and I decide to just call and reassess turn. 5.83 SB's.

The turn is unimportant, maybe the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I just call again, not wanting to put in 3 bets, as my call would leave me with 10.83:1 if I were to get three bet. I just call again.

The river is the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villian looks like he's thinking about betting, then checks. I bet. Villian checkraises. I puke in my mouth, then while attempting to appear nonchalant, fold pretty quickly. How much does this hand disgust you?

[/ QUOTE ]

folding this river is really dumb. he has KJ/KQ every time, but you still gotta call.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you played every street perfectly but I think you need to pay this raise off and hope he is doing something retarded.

btw, there are only 2 2p2ers that i know of who play that game--do you know the BB's name?

[/ QUOTE ]

The CO in this hand was a blonde dude, shades, hat, mid-30s. He play v v goot. I'd have to imagine he's a 2p2er.

BB was late 50's, graying beard, rectangular glasses.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds like CO might be brooks (bdaddy). I swear there are like no oaks players that post on 2p2, so please keep it quiet!

BB could be any number of people. How have the games been lately? I've been travelling for work and haven't been around to play in a month or so...any more talk of starting a 60?

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a lot of gross thing about this thread.

I don't 3 bet some one that I respect with KT.

If I did I would raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It felt extremely, extremely light. It's one of the few things about this horribly misplayed hands I really liked.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, 3-betting an aggressive CO opener with KTs is very standard, relax. If I'm folding its because I don't "respect" him, whatever that means.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

If you call the flop, I think you have to raise the turn, and fold to a 3-bet.

Then, after all this action goes in, you can fold to the river c/r.

If the BB is the player I'm thinking, he's the Oaks tourney player of the year... an NL convert who doesn't understand a lot of the limit nuances. So his PF strategy leaves a lot to be desired -- his calling two cold in the BB doesn't mean much (could be as little as J9s).

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

The preflop 3 bet is good vs my range and very standard. Call the river.

BTW, I dont remember this particular hand, or the BB, if it was me.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop 3 bet is good vs my range and very standard. Call the river.

BTW, I dont remember this particular hand, or the BB, if it was me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I 3-bet bdaddy here every time. If you're playing against me, tho, just fold. Or call with the intention of folding any non KKT flop. I probably have aces.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]

btw, there are only 2 2p2ers that i know of who play that game--do you know the BB's name?

[/ QUOTE ]

3, although i havent been there in a while.

btw i consider this an autocall, people do get out of line in that game.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
The preflop 3 bet is good vs my range and very standard. Call the river.

BTW, I dont remember this particular hand, or the BB, if it was me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did I play 3 handed with you and an older loose passive dude Wedsnesday before the game got full again?

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

guilty as charged. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

I don't usually 3 bet a Tag in this spot preflop unless he tends to open lightly this could go either way though i guess.

As played you must call the river even though you expect to be beat.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

folding the river is.... something i wouldn't do

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

You played every street except PF bad in my opinion.


So gross I'm giving you a 3/4.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
You played every street except PF bad in my opinion.


So gross I'm giving you a 3/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah. I'm with vmacosta, I think the hand is fine until the river fold. PF is a bit too aggro for my taste, but whatever not a big deal. Flop and turn calls are not only fine but IMO definitely the best lines -- if we're ahead, we don't have him totally crushed, and if we're behind we have outs, so I like a passive line.

Remember, in heads up pots it's less important to go nutsy aggro, especially in a spot like this where we have merely top pair/ok kicker on a draw-heavy board that hits a ton of hands that see a flop for 3 bets pre. There's nobody else to charge, and only one opponent to protect against. Getting to showdown is first and foremost (and poor Dan didn't even do that).

The river doesn't really help us as much as we think (the only hand we caught up to is J9), but his check is suspicious enough to go ahead and bet it. The raise sucks but just pay it off.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

Preflop 3-bet is wicked easy.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

I like preflop, and I would probably call the river C/R unless I have a better idea of how villain plays then you provide in the OP. That said: leading flop and turn and C/R the river when the topcard pairs almost certainly means that he isn't worried about that and he is certain that he still has the best hand.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

I like the three bet but it is not always standard.
Raise the flop. If there was a gun pointed at my head I still can't fold the river. I would say hey I lived a good but life blow my brains out.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

River fold is best played street, I realize some other people don't have self control to fold here but you are just beat like basically 90% of the time here imo..

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't you give us his hand range here. I think the hand is probably easier to play if you just raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop 3-bet is wicked easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would a flop raise then be "wicked standard?"

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

i think preflop is standard, but u got to raise the flop/ turn because the board is so draw heavy, id raise flop personally and call c/r on river

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

How can you not call for one more?

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can you not call for one more?

[/ QUOTE ]

True, obv I should have called. I felt like I wasn't ahead here even the 7-8% or whatever of the time that I needed for the call to have a positive expectation. Plus, I had just been so owned on the hand (largely self-owned) that I didn't want to part with $60 merely out of frustration. This guy was about 60 and I'd never seen anything remotely tricky out of him (unless openlimping A9o UTG could be considered tricky, lol).

IDK... looking back on this hand, I like the 3 bet PF iso move. I think that just calling the flop once opener folds is probably my worst play of the hand; even worse than the river bet-fold.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

After reading everything so far...here is what was good and bad...

Preflop was fine...no problem.
Flop ok...just call is okay-but you have to commit to a raising on the turn. If you raise the flop then you can see if he is strong or weak. You then have the ability to check check the turn if you think he is strong or bet if he is weak.
On the river if you get check raised-- the way you did....you have to make a crying call...you put too much in and your table image gets weak. Plus you may have the winner...or as good as a kicker.

Even if he said he had KQ...what else would he say that he had.

Once you decide to bet on the river then be ready to call a check raise...that is my suggestion. Don't bet the river if you can't take the heat...especially from a Player.

Re: How gross is this one? Oaks\' 30/60
 

this hand is perfect on every street. The river fold takes a lot of guts, but you were there, and you knew it was right.